The Definition Of Punk.

Reverend

The uk bands were pretty much doing a take american punk; stooges and mc5 were covered pistols and the damn3d for example.

andy_k

IMO, the bands that formed the 'Anarchy' tour, ie Pistols, Clash, Damned were the original form of UK 'Punk Rock'. Many others sprang from that inspiration, but as far as I am concerned it ended with the Ruts, everything else could be classed as 'New Wave', but I think the Ruts were the last band with the original spirit.

russpm

ICBM said:

russpm said:

The Rats were know as’ plastic’ punks and didn’t have much credibility on the punk scene in England. 

Like how Blondie were looked down on by 'proper' punks in New York...

Neither of them were punk, they were New Wave. Both bands wrote great songs that have stood the test of time better than most of the 'proper' punks though, so who cares?

Indeed

Neill

andy_k said:

IMO, the bands that formed the 'Anarchy' tour, ie Pistols, Clash, Damned were the original form of UK 'Punk Rock'. Many others sprang from that inspiration, but as far as I am concerned it ended with the Ruts, everything else could be classed as 'New Wave', but I think the Ruts were the last band with the original spirit.

AFAIK the UK Subs are still going...

26.2

No point in trying to categorize based on the music alone, as it’s the attitude mainly. UK punk opened the doors for artists to get music out there via new labels, bypassing the hippy-run major labels and avoiding the necessity to pay your dues and all that guff. Obviously the majors were still involved, but we’re followers, not leaders. 

I saw the Anarchy tour in 76, aged 14,and it really was like Sniffin’ Glue said - get out there and do it. It changed my life really. 

That said, I was never a ‘76 as year zero’ person and was delighted to discover (via Lenny Kaye) the Nuggets bands, who clearly had the same attitude. Also, closer to home - Dr Feelgood and dozens of other pub rockers (Count Bishops, Eddie and The Hot Rods) shared the same DNA but didn’t quite break the scene apart like The Pistols did. I also saw the same attitude in The Who, The Creation, The Pretty Things et al. 

Punk as a shock movement was all over by mid-77 really. Some would argue it ended when in late 76. 

Neill

26.2 said:

No point in trying to categorize based on the music alone, as it’s the attitude mainly. UK punk opened the doors for artists to get music out there via new labels, bypassing the hippy-run major labels and avoiding the necessity to pay your dues and all that guff. Obviously the majors were still involved, but we’re followers, not leaders. 

I saw the Anarchy tour in 76, aged 14,and it really was like Sniffin’ Glue said - get out there and do it. It changed my life really. 

That said, I was never a ‘76 as year zero’ person and was delighted to discover (via Lenny Kaye) the Nuggets bands, who clearly had the same attitude. Also, closer to home - Dr Feelgood and dozens of other pub rockers (Count Bishops, Eddie and The Hot Rods) shared the same DNA but didn’t quite break the scene apart like The Pistols did. I also saw the same attitude in The Who, The Creation, The Pretty Things et al. 

Punk as a shock movement was all over by mid-77 really. Some would argue it ended when in late 76. 

I was actually right there the moment "punk" ended, I remember it well as it was my 21st birthday, 23rd May 1977.  

My mates and I went to see The Ramones, supported by a little known combo calling themselves Talking Heads.   Much as we loved da brudders, we could all see the baton was being passed.

Philtre

Rick Wakeman's The Myths and Legends of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table on ice?

Shrews

Punk spirit to me was/is about sticking two fingers up to mainstream normality and not being afraid to do something different just because the mainstream say you shouldn't.

As soon as it starts to become mainstream, punk spirit has gone. The underground rap scene, acid house rave culture, even rock n roll in the 50's had it.  The Ibiza sound in the mid 90's had the spirit for a short time before someone saw the commercial scope of it. But there has not been anything since then. When your mum starts singing along to a bit of TuPac then it's surely lost its edge, especially if she also likes Ed Sheeran.

Punk Rock on the other hand, for me, was just about The Sex Pistols. Other bands like The Ramones, Clash, Stranglers and Damned were all there too, but it was The Sex Pistols who made music change. They basically gave permission to all bands around that time to be a lot braver because the kids will love it...and so will the music industry.

Prog Rock, Disco and Brotherhood of Man types blasted away to pave the way for New Wave and the Alternative sound that followed. Punk Rock born on rebellious punk spirit.

Not sure our youngsters these days have enough to rebel about.  Their phones tend to keep them amused and compliant and they seem happy with their lot.

SlopeSoarer

breakstuff said:

Can a band not considered punk still be classed as 'punk'.

As someone who grew up listening to the Pistols as a ten year old in the late seventies, and still class them as one of my top five favourite bands of all time, they where always the absolute definition of what punk was, and should be. Is punk more than just and image or sound, and can if be retrospectively be assigned to other genres /sounds that fall outside of the recognised definition.

Now forgetting said accepted definitions, what are your favourite non punk 'punk,' performances.

I'll nominate Iggy Pop

https://youtu.be/erjksafj_Jw

Shrews

My favourite non punk 'punk' performance was this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaxfc03Fqk 

It's 1978, Punk has been and gone, but she's not trying to sing in tune like Debbie Harry or trying to copy Siouxsie Sioux, she's just doing her own thing and fuck 'em if people don't like it. That's definite punk spirit right there, but too edgy to be New Wave.

breakstuff

Shrews said:

My favourite non punk 'punk' performance was this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaxfc03Fqk 

It's 1978, Punk has been and gone, but she's not trying to sing in tune like Debbie Harry or trying to copy Siouxsie Sioux, she's just doing her own thing and fuck 'em if people don't like it. That's definite punk spirit right there, but too edgy to be New Wave.

That's my thinking too, just not giving a damn what anyone else thinks. Do it for yourself, and if others come along for the ride, that's a bonus.

A little bit out there, but under that definition could this perennial favourite performance also be classed as 'punk'? On first watch you're just like WTF?!!! but it becomes more brilliant every time you watch it. I'm referring to the performance rather than the song, though that's brilliant too. 

Neill

The Tom Robinson Band were another outfit that really twisted the genre - the elements of "punk" were certainly there as in the classic "Up Against the Wall"



Guitarist Danny Kustow was an interesting being, talented but troubled. 

andy_k

Neill said:

andy_k said:

IMO, the bands that formed the 'Anarchy' tour, ie Pistols, Clash, Damned were the original form of UK 'Punk Rock'. Many others sprang from that inspiration, but as far as I am concerned it ended with the Ruts, everything else could be classed as 'New Wave', but I think the Ruts were the last band with the original spirit.

AFAIK the UK Subs are still going...

Fair enough, but then you have to start considering the likes of Sham69, Exploited, 999, Stranglers, Rejects etc etc.etc.
All great bands, all technically 'punk', but it was short lived in its original form.
Siouxsie was one of the originals, but I can't put them in the same league as the original few bands, lets call it the 'Joy Division' effect.
Another kind of blues is a great record though.

andy_k

back to the original Q though, 'non punk' punk, I'll be rad and say, Van Halen, you really got me, atomic punk, what a great choice for a first single in 78.

scrumhalf

Isn't it part of punk that anything can be punk? Eater were just kids, The Slits were haphazard to say the least. Other bands came, went and barely left an imprint in the mud.

Punk was an attitude, scaring the crap out of the established record companies by doing it by themselves and doing it well.

New wave came along and broadened the horizons whilst dropping some of the attitude, and brought us fantastic new music in a weekly basis. 

TheMarlin

JezWynd said:

This...

What you choose to do with those chords is up to you.

That looks like Captain Sensible’s handwriting and drawing style. 

PhilW1

First heard Motörhead (White line fever)on a Punk compilation album- Stiff records I think.

Funkfingers

scrumhalf said:

Punk was an attitude, scaring the crap out of the established record companies by doing it by themselves and doing it well.

A lot of people who started bands in 1976 claim to have attended the Sex Pistols' appearances at Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall.

It was Peter McNeish and Howard Trafford who booked the band. (Whatever happened to those two?)

Hattigol

I think punk can be construed narrowly (Pistols, Clash etc during a limited period in the late 70s) or much more widely.

The Jam for me were a punk band. It was more about their attitude and swagger. This is off their last live TV performance on The Tube - a soul cover with a brass section but to me it still sounds punkish. And fkg brilliant to boot....

viz

TheMarlin said:

JezWynd said:

This...

What you choose to do with those chords is up to you.

That looks like Captain Sensible’s handwriting and drawing style. 

Yep, like his hilarious chord chart for Smash It Up.