The Definition Of Punk.

Kilgore

Sound, swagger & attitude?

The first "punks" are obviously Eddie Cochran (covered by the Pistols et al) and Jerry Lee Lewis. 

merlin

Shrews said:

My favourite non punk 'punk' performance was this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaxfc03Fqk 

It's 1978, Punk has been and gone, but she's not trying to sing in tune like Debbie Harry or trying to copy Siouxsie Sioux, she's just doing her own thing and fuck 'em if people don't like it. That's definite punk spirit right there, but too edgy to be New Wave.

Loved her. She had an opera training, just so you know. 

scrumhalf

In Poly Styrene's case the punk attitude was being a female fronting a band thst wasn't being controlled by a (generally much older) male as was the case before punk. 

EricTheWeary

scrumhalf said:

In Poly Styrene's case the punk attitude was being a female fronting a band thst wasn't being controlled by a (generally much older) male as was the case before punk. 

I think that's part of why I liked The Slits - being young women who listened to reggae and could hardly play but still formed a band seemed more punk than some of the bigger names who were more pub rockers with new haircuts.
You have to wait until The Specials until British post punk started thinking about race and early hip hop really took the DIY baton and ran with it until like anything 'punk' it just became the new mainstream. 

I'm not really sure where it went after that but maybe I was too fat and old to have anything to do with whatever it was. Things like Drill and Trap maybe - they speak to particular audiences and are, rightfully, quite alien to many of us. 

Litterick

"It was easy, it was cheap – go and do it!"

Desperate Bicycles, 

Complete anthology here.

Gassage

It was also CBGB's.

Let's not forget that.

26.2

Litterick said:

"It was easy, it was cheap – go and do it!"

Desperate Bicycles, 

Complete anthology here.

I used to have the singles - Smokescreen, New Cross New Cross EP etc and the album Remorse Code (great lost album). I had an animated chat about them with John Peel many years ago. Definitely what punk was all about. 

26.2

Yep it certainly catalysed a disparate number of bands in the NYC scene - Television being by far my favourite. Also obv Ramones, Blondie, Talking Heads. 

The best NYC label was Terry Ork’s Ork Records - Television’s first single was on the label. Also some great bands that didn’t quite make it such as The Revlons, The Erasers, Marbles, Student Teachers and so on. Worth checking out.

The Boston scene was good too - The Maps, Real Kids, Lyres etc

i never liked West Coast punk much. 

26.2

That was a reply on CBGBs - didn’t quote somehow

Reverend

EricTheWeary said:

scrumhalf said:

In Poly Styrene's case the punk attitude was being a female fronting a band thst wasn't being controlled by a (generally much older) male as was the case before punk. 

I think that's part of why I liked The Slits - being young women who listened to reggae and could hardly play but still formed a band seemed more punk than some of the bigger names who were more pub rockers with new haircuts.
You have to wait until The Specials until British post punk started thinking about race and early hip hop really took the DIY baton and ran with it until like anything 'punk' it just became the new mainstream. 

I'm not really sure where it went after that but maybe I was too fat and old to have anything to do with whatever it was. Things like Drill and Trap maybe - they speak to particular audiences and are, rightfully, quite alien to many of us. 

Early hip hop precedes UK punk, and even the NYC CBGB's punk. Hip Hop's DIY is from 60s Jamaican Soundclash culture. 

LastMantra

EricTheWeary said:

I do think that Punk was of it’s era and past a certain point nothing new was punk anymore. My son ended up in some online debate about wether Billy Eilish is punk and well no she isn’t. She’s borrowed a bit of the look. If I put an antimacassar on my sofa I don’t become a Victorian. That dream catcher from Aldi isn’t going to make me spiritually connected to the great white buffalo. Punk wasn't a musical style per se, you can't show me the punk chord progression. 

Rocker said:

As I understand it, punk was more or less confined to London, Dublin and Glasgow.  There were a number of punk bands from Dublin, The Boomtown Rats being the best known.  Attitude and a rebellious nature combined with irreverence for the music business defines punk in my opinion.

Bob Geldof makes an argument that Punk was essentially Irish. But there were scenes in many places - the more they are footnotes in the history of punk possibly the more punk they actually were. 

I don't know if it was intentional or not but there's some punk songs that sound very like "traditional" Irish folk music and vice versa. Especially as they get more drunk, things speed up and the vocals get more shouty. 
If you've never heard it you might think I'm talking rubbish but once you've heard it it's hard to deny. 

Oi!

ICBM

You could probably argue the the Arctic Monkeys are (or were) punk, since their initial success was entirely DIY (MySpace - remember that?), with sharp songwriting and simple but effective guitar-based music.

26.2

Re: Rockers comment above about punk being mainly confined to London, Glasgow, Dublin. 

No. There were punk bands from everywhere, even the most unlikely backwaters. The whole point was that you didn’t need to be in London anymore to deal with the record companies. Of course the cities accelerated bands as they always do and you had to gig there, but bands were based all over, as were labels. 

Neill

26.2 said:

Re: Rockers comment above about punk being mainly confined to London, Glasgow, Dublin. 

No. There were punk bands from everywhere, even the most unlikely backwaters. The whole point was that you didn’t need to be in London anymore to deal with the record companies. Of course the cities accelerated bands as they always do and you had to gig there, but bands were based all over, as were labels. 

Crikey yes, we even had our own punk band in Rotherham..!  And believe me if you put "Band" and "Rotherham" into Google you'll more than likely just get articles about Council Tax.

Anyhow, they were called 2.3, and had a decent tune called "Fuck the Front" which was a protest about the racist National Front organisation in the 1970's.

Their main claim to fame was actually introducing Phil Oakey and the fledgling Human League to Fast Records, and getting them their first gig.  I remember seeing them I think at the Black Swan in Sheffield, and they were dreadful.  No-one saw their meteoric rise to fame coming.

26.2

Neill said:

26.2 said:

Re: Rockers comment above about punk being mainly confined to London, Glasgow, Dublin. 

No. There were punk bands from everywhere, even the most unlikely backwaters. The whole point was that you didn’t need to be in London anymore to deal with the record companies. Of course the cities accelerated bands as they always do and you had to gig there, but bands were based all over, as were labels. 

Crikey yes, we even had our own punk band in Rotherham..!  And believe me if you put "Band" and "Rotherham" into Google you'll more than likely just get articles about Council Tax.

Anyhow, they were called 2.3, and had a decent tune called "Fuck the Front" which was a protest about the racist National Front organisation in the 1970's.

Their main claim to fame was actually introducing Phil Oakey and the fledgling Human League to Fast Records, and getting them their first gig.  I remember seeing them I think at the Black Swan in Sheffield, and they were dreadful.  No-one saw their meteoric rise to fame coming.

I know 2.3. I used to have Fast Product - some good stuff on that - Gang of Four, Mekons, Scars etc

Blueingreen

It's impossible to come up with a definition someone couldn't pick holes in.  You could even argue that since it originated in America and the British variation was substantially different that what the Brits tend to think of as "core punk" (Clash, Pistols etc) isn't actually punk.

Gassage

26.2 said:

Yep it certainly catalysed a disparate number of bands in the NYC scene - Television being by far my favourite. Also obv Ramones, Blondie, Talking Heads. 

The best NYC label was Terry Ork’s Ork Records - Television’s first single was on the label. Also some great bands that didn’t quite make it such as The Revlons, The Erasers, Marbles, Student Teachers and so on. Worth checking out.

The Boston scene was good too - The Maps, Real Kids, Lyres etc

i never liked West Coast punk much. 

I hear Clem Burke is filming a documentary about the impact of CBGB's....I am really looking forward to it.

26.2

Gassage said:

26.2 said:

Yep it certainly catalysed a disparate number of bands in the NYC scene - Television being by far my favourite. Also obv Ramones, Blondie, Talking Heads. 

The best NYC label was Terry Ork’s Ork Records - Television’s first single was on the label. Also some great bands that didn’t quite make it such as The Revlons, The Erasers, Marbles, Student Teachers and so on. Worth checking out.

The Boston scene was good too - The Maps, Real Kids, Lyres etc

i never liked West Coast punk much. 

I hear Clem Burke is filming a documentary about the impact of CBGB's....I am really looking forward to it.

That sounds cool. I hope they go wider than just the usual suspects, but I suspect it’ll be Debbie/Patti/Byrne/Stein/Hell etc

I played there long after it’s heyday it was still a cool place though. 

Kittyfrisk

Woke up at 4am with an earworm. It happens every morning, but today's choice was a tune I haven't heard for decades, no idea where it surfaced from...
It was "I'm Only Little' by 'Neon' a band from Durham that I used to know back in 1978.
I reckon that it might just belong in the non punk 'punk' performance category.
Hope that you like it as much as I still do.
"I'm Only Little' is at 2m 17s if you can't wait that long 

26.2

Kittyfrisk said:

Woke up at 4am with an earworm. It happens every morning, but today's choice was a tune I haven't heard for decades, no idea where it surfaced from...
It was "I'm Only Little' by 'Neon' a band from Durham that I used to know back in 1978.
I reckon that it might just belong in the non punk 'punk' performance category.
Hope that you like it as much as I still do.
"I'm Only Little' is at 2m 17s if you can't wait that long 

I remember them - the song I remember was called ‘Wuh Wuh’ IIRC. I sort of bracket them with Punishment of Luxury and Penetration from the North East, although they are nowhere near as good.