Saving the planet / IPCC report on Climate Change Aug ‘21

Greatape

MatthewShreddery said:

Greatape said:

MatthewShreddery said:

See the other thread on this. 

Spokesman for polluting industries 

Link please

EDIT - ignore, found it.
Will read. Good to get as many points of view on all these important issues and not just accept the mainstream narrative

Indeed, but equally you have to evaluate the value of the opinion of one paid advocate of the position he espouses versus the weight of scientific research in the opposite corner. 

Greatape

Rocker said:

A number of posters said that they gave up red meat [to save the planet].  How does this self deprivation of an essential part of our natural diet, help the planet?

.

Well, raising cattle in South America has led to heavy deforestation. Reducing capacity of Amazon to be a carbon sink. 

Uses a lot of water. Higher carbon footprint. 

Much less efficient use of calories from food crops than just growing food crops. 

Maybe just Google it. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/11/15/how-much-would-giving-up-meat-help-the-environment

viz

Rocker said:

A number of posters said that they gave up red meat [to save the planet].  How does this self deprivation of an essential part of our natural diet, help the planet?

Hiya Rocker, I’m not really aiming this reply to you but more just chatting to the wider public, but your post was very interesting and made me reflect back on how, why, and when I became veggie. How it actually happened. I mean, I was an avid meat eater all my life, until 6 years ago. Then something happened which, looking back on it, is really extraordinary to me. I mean I was a real proper meat eater. Loved lamb casserole, sirloin and fillet steaks, lamb doners, chicken dinners, bacon sandwiches, cold beef and mustard sandwiches, roasted trout with almonds and chillis, sausages and burgers on the barbecue, black pudding, you name it, I bloody loved it. I mean, humans are equipped with ripping teeth, strong stomachs and a lust for that complex, delicious taste of flesh. I loved it. I was like Cypher in The Matrix when he eats that fillet, sips the wine, groan/sighs and betrays his saviours of humanity, his friends. Just for a taste of that lovely meat

Then I had a genuine epiphany regarding eating meat. I was maybe in a suggestive state, I’d perhaps been considering it in the back of my mind, though I have no memory of that so I can’t be sure. But what I remember like it was earlier today, is that one day I was idly browsing youtube and came across a video, I watched it, and I never ate meat again. It didn’t particularly horrify me, it didn’t stun me, I’d heard it all before. But it must have had a profound effect on my mind. It was maybe a bit like being hypnotised. Because I finished watching it, I was thinking about it on and off for a bit, and then … well, then I never ate meat again, from that day. It was quite odd. I just lost the taste for it. It feels really odd when you change something that’s such a foregone part of what makes you you, and you don’t even feel it.

I hesitate to post the video on here because I’m not trying to convert anyone, and anyway vegetable deniers (I just made that up) will probably say it’s stupid or crap or innacurate or whatever. I don’t want to spoil it, or have it spoilt for me.

So I don’t see it as natural anymore, not in the way we consume meat, and yes, I do think it has an effect on our planet too. Small obviously. But being part of the solution is important to me. And now that I have a plant diet I am actually pretty thankful to the fellow who had such an impression on me all those years ago. 

jpfamps

The main green issue with food is wastage.

About a third of the World's food never gets eaten, and represents about 8% of green house gas emissions.

Eliminating food wastage is considered by many commentators as one of the top 3 most effective solutions to greenhouse gas emmisions.

Unfortunatley refrigeration is a major contributor to green house gas emmissions too, and much food spoils due to lack of refrigeration.

Keiko

Greatape said:

Rocker said:

A number of posters said that they gave up red meat [to save the planet].  How does this self deprivation of an essential part of our natural diet, help the planet?

.

Well, raising cattle in South America has led to heavy deforestation. Reducing capacity of Amazon to be a carbon sink. 

Uses a lot of water. Higher carbon footprint. 

Much less efficient use of calories from food crops than just growing food crops. 

Maybe just Google it. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/11/15/how-much-would-giving-up-meat-help-the-environment

Yep google it, but from what I understand it's a number of things. Cattle contribute a lot of methane from burping and farting, which is one of the worst gases for global warming, a lot worse than carbon dioxide. Cattle cause deforestation, mainly because they need so much food (soy). Because of population growth in other countries (not so much UK) demand for meat is still increasing rapidly.

If you want to educate yourself I would highly recommend Bill Gates' book 'how to avoid a climate disaster'. I learned a lot from it. Non of the scaremongering you can get in other books, just puts a good perspective on what needs to be done, with some sensible solutions and ideas.  I would love to add some stats from it here, and make myself look clever, but I've lent it to someone, doh. It's all in there anyway, get it:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Avoid-Climate-Disaster-Breakthroughs/dp/B082PVZV32/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=117307943931&dchild=1&keywords=how+to+avoid+climate+disaster&qid=1627077388&sr=8-1

Hottubes

This Bill gates is one clever man. Vaccine expert and now a climate expert. 
People dismiss patrick moore then tout gates as an expert. Give me a break.

NEWSFLASH. Money doesn't make you an expert. 

Stratavarious

Hottubes said:

This Bill gates is one clever man. Vaccine expert and now a climate expert. 
People dismiss patrick moore then tout gates as an expert. Give me a break.

NEWSFLASH. Money doesn't make you an expert. 

Can you please explain how the thousands of highly educated researchers and scientists the foundation organises with his money are not ‘expert’.    Does he just employ bad ones?

Or do you have zero idea what you are talking about.

His work on eradicating 99% of polio globally is probably the greatest vaccine success ever. It was killing or disabling a thousand kids a day.   https://www.gatesfoundation.org/our-work/programs/global-development/polio

NEWSFLASH: He has earned his airtime and the publications are not shot full of obvious obfuscations and misleading claims., unlike Patrick Moore’s.

Greatape

Stratavarious said:

Hottubes said:

This Bill gates is one clever man. Vaccine expert and now a climate expert. 
People dismiss patrick moore then tout gates as an expert. Give me a break.

NEWSFLASH. Money doesn't make you an expert. 

Can you please explain how the thousands of highly educated researchers and scientists the foundation organises with his money are not ‘expert’.    Does he just employ bad ones?

Or do you have zero idea what you are talking about.

His work on eradicating 99% of polio globally is probably the greatest vaccine success ever. It was killing or disabling a thousand kids a day.   https://www.gatesfoundation.org/our-work/programs/global-development/polio

NEWSFLASH: He has earned his airtime and the publications are not shot full of obvious obfuscations and misleading claims., unlike Patrick Moore’s.

Yes ...but don't forget that he's also responsible for the unholy trinity of Excel, Access and PowerPoint. So obvs, completely evil. When I see job adverts that talk about 'data' in the same breath as 'Excel', I shudder. 

Stratavarious

Greatape said:

Stratavarious said:

Hottubes said:

This Bill gates is one clever man. Vaccine expert and now a climate expert. 
People dismiss patrick moore then tout gates as an expert. Give me a break.

NEWSFLASH. Money doesn't make you an expert. 

Can you please explain how the thousands of highly educated researchers and scientists the foundation organises with his money are not ‘expert’.    Does he just employ bad ones?

Or do you have zero idea what you are talking about.

His work on eradicating 99% of polio globally is probably the greatest vaccine success ever. It was killing or disabling a thousand kids a day.   https://www.gatesfoundation.org/our-work/programs/global-development/polio

NEWSFLASH: He has earned his airtime and the publications are not shot full of obvious obfuscations and misleading claims., unlike Patrick Moore’s.

Yes ...but don't forget that he's also responsible for the unholy trinity of Excel, Access and PowerPoint. So obvs, completely evil. When I see job adverts that talk about 'data' in the same breath as 'Excel', I shudder. 

That is true. 

Hottubes

Stratavarious said:

Hottubes said:

This Bill gates is one clever man. Vaccine expert and now a climate expert. 
People dismiss patrick moore then tout gates as an expert. Give me a break.

NEWSFLASH. Money doesn't make you an expert. 

Can you please explain how the thousands of highly educated researchers and scientists the foundation organises with his money are not ‘expert’.    Does he just employ bad ones?

Or do you have zero idea what you are talking about.

His work on eradicating 99% of polio globally is probably the greatest vaccine success ever. It was killing or disabling a thousand kids a day.   https://www.gatesfoundation.org/our-work/programs/global-development/polio

NEWSFLASH: He has earned his airtime and the publications are not shot full of obvious obfuscations and misleading claims., unlike Patrick Moore’s.

I am pretty sure the polio vaccine was around a long time ago. Gates didn't create the polio vaccine.
So he pays others to do the work and claims it as his own. Lol

TheMarlin

The thing about the big green environmental movement, as with tax, the burden of responsibility is shouldered almost entirely by the poor, the average person, us. 

With billionaires and mega Corps paying less tax than I do, the super rich taking day trips into space atop enormously polluting frikin rockets then going home in gigantic yachts or onboard personal jets. Massive data centres and bit coin farms burning through huge quantities of electricity, all those lorries on the motorway carry the food for our plates, and clothes for our backs, and all our pious gesturing with our veg patches, talk of local shopping (while ordering from Amazon daily), electric vehicles powered from coal burning powers stations, not to mention the horrific legacy of nuclear power  (Chernobyl & Fukushima (4 melt downs, and toxic water now being officially dumped in the ocean) etc etc etc

I’m bored of it all. 

Yes, I do ‘my bit’, the garden is stuffed with vegetables, but I’ll have a glut of veggies in autumn, and then what, cabbages for winter? It’s a vanity project, doesn’t actually solve my reliance on supermarkets. 

I bought a diesel ULEZ compliant car, not an electric car.  I honestly believe that building electric cars is very environmentally damaging. 

The truth is that we’ve been suckered into believing it’s all our fault, we’re to blame. But we work within the available framework. The system needs to change. 

We need to start holding the wealthy up to the same standard that social media is desperate to convince us we should be held up to.  We should actually tax the wealthy, and actually tax corporations,  Hold these Corps and billionaires up to the same environmental standard we’re being targeted with.  

It’s time this burden was distributed more equally, fairly. 

Social media is not your friend. 

Hottubes

Everyone thinks gates is wonderful. He is a cunt. 

He tried to rip off his microsoft pal whilst he was on his death bed.

Greatape

Hottubes said:

Stratavarious said:

Hottubes said:

This Bill gates is one clever man. Vaccine expert and now a climate expert. 
People dismiss patrick moore then tout gates as an expert. Give me a break.

NEWSFLASH. Money doesn't make you an expert. 

Can you please explain how the thousands of highly educated researchers and scientists the foundation organises with his money are not ‘expert’.    Does he just employ bad ones?

Or do you have zero idea what you are talking about.

His work on eradicating 99% of polio globally is probably the greatest vaccine success ever. It was killing or disabling a thousand kids a day.   https://www.gatesfoundation.org/our-work/programs/global-development/polio

NEWSFLASH: He has earned his airtime and the publications are not shot full of obvious obfuscations and misleading claims., unlike Patrick Moore’s.

I am pretty sure the polio vaccine was around a long time ago. Gates didn't create the polio vaccine.

Yes, but obviously, his contribution was to fund a massive vaccination effort. 

Hottubes

TheMarlin said:

The thing about the big green environmental movement, as with tax, the burden of responsibility is shouldered almost entirely by the poor, the average person, us. 

With billionaires and mega Corps paying less tax than I do, the super rich taking day trips into space atop enormously polluting frikin rockets then going home in gigantic yachts or onboard personal jets. Massive data centres and bit coin farms burning through huge quantities of electricity, all those lorries on the motorway carry the food for our plates, and clothes for our backs, and all our pious gesturing with our veg patches, talk of local shopping (while ordering from Amazon daily), electric vehicles powered from coal burning powers stations, not to mention the horrific legacy of nuclear power  (Chernobyl & Fukushima (4 melt downs, and toxic water now being officially dumped in the ocean) etc etc etc

I’m bored of it all. 

Yes, I do ‘my bit’, the garden is stuffed with vegetables, but I’ll have a glut of veggies in autumn, and then what, cabbages for winter? It’s a vanity project, doesn’t actually solve my reliance on supermarkets. 

I bought a diesel ULEZ compliant car, not an electric car.  I honestly believe that building electric cars is very environmentally damaging. 

The truth is that we’ve been suckered into believing it’s all our fault, we’re to blame. But we work within the available framework. The system needs to change. 

We need to start holding the wealthy up to the same standard that social media is desperate to convince us we should be held up to.  We should actually tax the wealthy, and actually tax corporations,  Hold these Corps and billionaires up to the same environmental standard we’re being targeted with.  

It’s time this burden was distributed more equally, fairly. 

Social media is not your friend

Well said.

Stratavarious

Hottubes said:

Stratavarious said:

Hottubes said:

This Bill gates is one clever man. Vaccine expert and now a climate expert. 
People dismiss patrick moore then tout gates as an expert. Give me a break.

NEWSFLASH. Money doesn't make you an expert. 

Can you please explain how the thousands of highly educated researchers and scientists the foundation organises with his money are not ‘expert’.    Does he just employ bad ones?

Or do you have zero idea what you are talking about.

His work on eradicating 99% of polio globally is probably the greatest vaccine success ever. It was killing or disabling a thousand kids a day.   https://www.gatesfoundation.org/our-work/programs/global-development/polio

NEWSFLASH: He has earned his airtime and the publications are not shot full of obvious obfuscations and misleading claims., unlike Patrick Moore’s.

I am pretty sure the polio vaccine was around a long time ago. Gates didn't create the polio vaccine.
So he pays others to do the work and claims it as his own. Lol

I am pretty sure Patrick Moore did not invent nuclear fission either... or earth observation satellites, solar output recording, ice and sediment core boring machines, mass spectrometry or thermometers.

Greatape

Hottubes said:

TheMarlin said:

The thing about the big green environmental movement, as with tax, the burden of responsibility is shouldered almost entirely by the poor, the average person, us. 

With billionaires and mega Corps paying less tax than I do, the super rich taking day trips into space atop enormously polluting frikin rockets then going home in gigantic yachts or onboard personal jets. Massive data centres and bit coin farms burning through huge quantities of electricity, all those lorries on the motorway carry the food for our plates, and clothes for our backs, and all our pious gesturing with our veg patches, talk of local shopping (while ordering from Amazon daily), electric vehicles powered from coal burning powers stations, not to mention the horrific legacy of nuclear power  (Chernobyl & Fukushima (4 melt downs, and toxic water now being officially dumped in the ocean) etc etc etc

I’m bored of it all. 

Yes, I do ‘my bit’, the garden is stuffed with vegetables, but I’ll have a glut of veggies in autumn, and then what, cabbages for winter? It’s a vanity project, doesn’t actually solve my reliance on supermarkets. 

I bought a diesel ULEZ compliant car, not an electric car.  I honestly believe that building electric cars is very environmentally damaging. 

The truth is that we’ve been suckered into believing it’s all our fault, we’re to blame. But we work within the available framework. The system needs to change. 

We need to start holding the wealthy up to the same standard that social media is desperate to convince us we should be held up to.  We should actually tax the wealthy, and actually tax corporations,  Hold these Corps and billionaires up to the same environmental standard we’re being targeted with.  

It’s time this burden was distributed more equally, fairly. 

Social media is not your friend

Well said.

It's interesting that for those of us who generally accept that humanity has vastly exacerbated climate change - and I'm judging from your remark here that you do - we are, broadly speaking, on the same page. That's to say, we can - and in many cases, do - make adjustments to our individual way of life, but really, the main change will only come when and if the wealthy (individuals, corporations) are effectively held to account, and are no longer allowed to externalise their environmental liabilities. 

Meanwhile, paid shills foster division and spread misinformation. 

Stratavarious

Hottubes said:

Everyone thinks gates is wonderful. He is a cunt. 

He tried to rip off his microsoft pal whilst he was on his death bed.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Hottubes

^ Epsteins island buddy. Enough said.

Stratavarious

^^ No sweat

Adey

Going back to the original question... Does the planet really need saving?

I don't think so.

The planet has been through these cycles many times before and will be quite capable of coping with the current phase caused by humans (most likely). It doesn't need saving. It's fine.

In 1,000,000 years it'll still be here and smothered with life. It probably just won't have us on it any longer. The life on it might be quite different to what is on it at the moment though.

I presume that the question really should have been "what the feck are we doing to the planet were living on? Are we going to make it impossible for the human race to live on it? What should we do?"

I know I'll sound like a miserable git, but there probably isn't much we can do, because we are too clever individually and collectively. We want to find better, quicker, cheaper ways of doing things and have been so successful that we are a bit of a nuisance now to others on the planet. We are never happy with where we are. Continual improvement is always wanted.

You don't see that in most other animals. They just get on with living, and slugs and snails will still be here just being slugs and snails long after we are all gone...