Issues singing live with PA - how to practise

thecolourbox

Hi all

I played at an outdoor event the other day, solo accompanied by my acoustic and a bit on a stage piano. Was fun and have always fancied trying to play in that kind of setting more regularly, but it reminded me of a few issues I always encounter and thought I'd ask here for any tips on how to get over them.

Basically, when I'm playing and singing at home or when I used to go to an unamplified folk music night, my playing and singing sounds better than when I'm amplified and with background noise. As soon as I'm stood behind speakers and I can no longer really hear my playing and singing acoustically that well, my pitching goes to pot and for some reason I seem to speed up as well which doesn't help. The last bit is probably just a confidence thing and me going into a bit of panic.

Admittedly there was not a monitor speaker at the event I played but I think even when there has been I've struggled with the disconnect a bit. I also think I have some level of misophonia where background noise disrupts my hearing of foreground noise - on the flipside I can often hear very quiet things that others around me cannot hear, as long as they are at the right frequencies.

Anyway, is there a best way to practise to try to overcome this issue that I can do at home? I don't have a lot of time to go to open mics and my music isn't necessarily suitable for those settings anyway.

Or would I be best looking to put together an IEM type setup with a preamp box that can handle the guitar and vocals, so I can hear myself in my ears and just give the sound guy an XLR output from it? As I'd be able to practice with that at home quite easily then and it would translate directly to an on stage setup.

Thanks

Emp_Fab

Yes.  Get some IEMs, however you do it.  It's transformative.

maltingsaudio

Emp isn’t that far off with his comment. You’ll often see singers with a finger in their ear at folk clubs, it can help you hear yourself. Now that’s a bit difficult when playing a guitar as well but pop into boots and buy some cheap earplugs, shouldn’t set you back more than a fiver, and try it .

thecolourbox

Thanks chaps. I did take my TC Helicon Voicelive to this event which I should use with IEMs although I chickened out of using it because I thought I'd look like a pretentious tit but actually in hindsight that would have been ideal with some earphones.

I'm not sure if just using earplugs would work due to the instrument as well being a bit quiet but I suppose it's worth a go. Or worth considering not playing guitar lol

Emp_Fab

If that doesn't work, you could just buy earplugs for the audience.  

Stratavarious

Little inline monitor on mic stand..  https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_b105d.htm

Do guitar and mic,

smigeon

Stratavarious said:

Little inline monitor on mic stand..  https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_b105d.htm

Do guitar and mic,

Seconded. I use one of these with a reasonably loud pub rock band. Much easier to pitch your voice than relying on spill from the main PA, and (perhaps surprisingly) I've found it better than wedges too (ours are EVs, so quite reasonable).

Downside is that although it cuts through, the sound is a bit harsh (as you might expect from a little 5" speaker).

The other downside is that it probably takes more than 20 seconds to set up so is maybe not ideal for a quick-change-over open mic type situation.

JMP220478

Before moving to wireless - used a Behringer P1 headphone amp and some Shure inears with a direct feed off a Boss VE20 vocal pedal and it worked well .. 

you could alternatively run a small mixer for both vocals n guitar to iems and direct to house feed too … 

stickyfiddle

Singing without proper monitoring is a nightmare. Get a small monitor you can bring with you, or IEMs. 

Legionreturns

In terms of practising, your best bet is simply to play at home with everything coming in through headphones / iems. 

You can further compound that experience by applying reverb to your vocals so it sounds as alien to you as hearing yourself through a  PA. 

This should get you used to pitching secondary sound, rather than trying to hear your unamplified voice. 

thecolourbox

Thanks chaps, some very useful and informative info. And also reassurance that I wasn't completely going mad in having the issue in the first place (even though I do think I have more issues with it than the average person).

When I record I do wear headphones (over ear not in ear, but suspect it could still work) and I'm happy with doing that. I normally like how my voice sounds when I record that way so looks like that will be the way forwards.

I think I saw a headphone amp/earbuds combo for sale in the classifieds so perhaps that's the way forward. I'm not sure a physical Monitor speaker would fully solve it, though it would be better than nowt I guess.

Is it just a case of being careful not to trip over the wires when using the IEMs then? 

Say if I had my mic plugged into my TC Helicon Voicelive via XLR, guitar into the same via Jack lead. Dual mono output on the xlr outputs, one goes to the desk and the other to my headphone amp which is on my belt - I suppose you could tape the guitar cable and output cable together to reduce the trip hazard and they'd roughly go to the same place

mrkb

The voicelive 3 I had came with a combined guitar and headphone cable. Like this one-

https://www.holydogwater.com/product/B00ID2NB1C/

thecolourbox

mrkb said:

The voicelive 3 I had came with a combined guitar and headphone cable. Like this one-

https://www.holydogwater.com/product/B00ID2NB1C/

Ah yeah that's a good idea, I use a passive pickup with my guitar though which has the cable attached already so that wouldn't really work unfortunately unless I replaced that.

However if I were to find my mythical unicorn guitar (ie an electric that I could use instead of my acoustic for finger picking stuff) then that could also work. Interesting! Thanks

Celticdave

thecolourbox said:

Thanks chaps. I did take my TC Helicon Voicelive to this event which I should use with IEMs although I chickened out of using it because I thought I'd look like a pretentious tit but actually in hindsight that would have been ideal with some earphones.

Do what you have to in order to give a great performance. I use a Bose PA so it can sit behind me and I can hear myself, while it also disperses the sound out to the audience at 180*. Something else I've done with a more traditional PA is use a small Fishman acoustic amp and put it on the ground in front of me. It can be used as a sort of DI with a pre-eq line-out to the PA. 

CarpeDiem

thecolourbox said:

mrkb said:

The voicelive 3 I had came with a combined guitar and headphone cable. Like this one-

https://www.holydogwater.com/product/B00ID2NB1C/

Ah yeah that's a good idea, I use a passive pickup with my guitar though which has the cable attached already so that wouldn't really work unfortunately unless I replaced that.

However if I were to find my mythical unicorn guitar (ie an electric that I could use instead of my acoustic for finger picking stuff) then that could also work. Interesting! Thanks

Would an electric with a piezo pickup, or an acoustic simulator pedal, work for you?

Musicwolf

I'm not a singer by any stretch of the imaginations but I do provide backing vocals.  Monitoring is an absolute must for me if I am to sing in key.

I've run countless exercises in the studio trying to improve my pitching, recording the results and using pitch analysis software to measure accuracy.  What I've found is that I achieve the best result by listening to the backing through speakers whilst hearing myself unamplified i.e. singing naturally.  Brilliant, that's no good for gigs (unless it's me singing at a piano in an old people's home, and I'm not quite ready for that yet).

If I have a monitor on stage with my voice quite high (the loudest thing in the mix) then I'm ok.  Drop the level of my voice to where it should be in the front of house mix and my pitch starts to drift.

In ears have been my salvation.  I have ACS Custom Moulds (single driver) and I'm using a Behringer P16-M as an amplifier which means that it's very easy to adjust my own in ear mix on the fly.  I don't use a combined headphone and guitar lead but I may well join the two separate leads together before our next gig.

Yesterday I rehearsed with one of my bands and, for the first time since lockdown 1, I set up my in ears as we have a gig in a couple of weeks.  An absolute massive step up in performance.  I'm now thinking that my next music related purchase will be a new set of multi-driver custom moulds to enhance the listening experience.

thecolourbox

Cheers chaps for the useful info. Looks like investing in a headphone amp and IEMs is going to be a good move for me I think in terms of actual monitor amps, they have the potential to be less consistent than earphones, I like the idea of it being fully under my control and consistent sound in my ears whether I'm at home practising, at a gig or even an outside thing like the other week - sounding the same in my ears and through the desk seems more likely with IEMs and of course less storage space at home for me than an amp!

CarpeDiem said:

thecolourbox said:
... my mythical unicorn guitar (ie an electric that I could use instead of my acoustic for finger picking stuff)...

Would an electric with a piezo pickup, or an acoustic simulator pedal, work for you?

I don't particularly want it to sound like an acoustic as such (or indeed a simulation of an acoustic), I just fancy something I could play finger picking on that isn't as massive a body as an acoustic, and would be just played clean through an electric amp (or amp model, in the case of the Voicelive). I only play acoustic really because that's what gets me more opportunities to play, but obviously then it's a bit cliché and I just sound like all the others who do the same. However playing Acoustic techniques on an electric sound nicely different and I'd hoped could result in me being a smaller bodied guitar as I'm a small guy and acoustic guitar bodies are quite hard work for me.

This is the kind of sound I mean

But that would have been on a Gibson L5 which is a massive archtop that costs more than my car. I like a rounder neck radius for electric playing with a chunky profile, but for the kind of Acoustic style playing I do I need a flatter radius and thinner profile (in terms of depth) but wide enough to have space for broken chords finger picking - so it's kind of out of my knowledge area and more than likely significantly above my available budget haha