P.a speaker size for full band

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dilithium85dilithium85 Frets: 47
I've found some great deals on a couple second hand pa's ranging from 400 Watts and more.
But a couple of speakers are 10 inch. Considering I'm only putting vocals through them and possibly assisting the kick drum. Will they be sufficient? Or should I stick to the 12 or 15 inch to handle the low thud I don't have money for subs yet unfortunately
Thanks
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Comments

  • MusicwolfMusicwolf Frets: 2198
    The 400w rating means almost nothing.  Different manufacturers use different measures (peak, RMS and the wonderful 'music power' which is a marketing invention), you also have to consider things such as speaker efficiency.  A better, although less than perfect, measure would be max dB's.

    That said, I prefer 10" or 12" to 15" when it comes to vocals.  How your 10" will cope with kick will depend upon the spec of the speaker / cab and which frequencies you are hoping to boost.  If you're looking for trouser flapping 'thud' then you will need a sub.

    Low frequencies cost, add weight and take up boot and storage space.  Trying to do it on the cheap usually results in dissapointment so I'd say go for smaller tops (i.e. 10") and save up for a sub (A proper one. Not some cheap, one note, thing).

    Can you provide any more details of the sytem that you are looking at (make / model)?
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  • dilithium85dilithium85 Frets: 47
    Thanks. I've seen peavey pro-15, Yamaha stagepas 600i and Behringer eps500, so enough power for what I need
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  • MusicwolfMusicwolf Frets: 2198
    Thanks. I've seen peavey pro-15, Yamaha stagepas 600i and Behringer eps500, so enough power for what I need
    Aren't the Peavy Pro-15's passive?  If so, you'd need to factor in a suitable power amp.

    I'd take the Yamaha's over the Behringer's any day.

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  • dilithium85dilithium85 Frets: 47
    I do agree about the Yamaha even though they're small speakers but Behringer gets a bad rap when they produce quality gear (for the most part)
    The peavey are passive but come with a phonic power pod 
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  • MusicwolfMusicwolf Frets: 2198
    Behringer gets a bad rap when they produce quality gear (for the most part)
    Behringer do make some good gear (I use their XR18 mixer for live and an X-Touch plus Expander in the studio.  I'd happily recommend them), but they also have some legacy crap (Behringer DI 120 anyone?  Two noise generators for the price of one).  Some of their monitors are ok for the money (I have a 205D personal monitor which the drummer uses.  Sounds crap in isolation but cuts through a mix on stage) but I've not been impressed with their FOH stuff when I've had the misfortune to have to use it.

    The fact that they only seem to quote peak power (another near useless measure) and no SPL in their spec immediately makes me suspicious.

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  • dilithium85dilithium85 Frets: 47
    Yeah without a doubt they make some trash. My school had those Di boxes (we didn't know any better)
    Prefer active speakers but the peavey and phonic would more than cover my needs
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 56973
    In my (admittedly not very up-to-date) experience I wouldn't even attempt to put kick drum through a system that doesn't have proper separately powered subs, no matter what the size of the top drivers. It will stress the amp and the speakers, and cause major problems for the mix because those extreme low frequencies require far more power from the amp - which takes away headroom from everything else - and can overload the speaker even if it can actually reproduce those frequencies properly... most can't, even 15".

    I don't actually like top cabs with 15s, especially when people try to use them to do the job of subs - and if you do have subs, then the tops don't need to go that low. I find 12s usually leave less of a hole in the midrange, and for most purposes 10s are fine too - although if you're trying to put a full mix (excluding kick drum and bass guitar, or low-range keyboards) through it then you might find 10s could struggle, but I'd way rather use tops with 10s and subs, than tops with 12s or 15s and no subs.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • dilithium85dilithium85 Frets: 47
    Unfortunately not enough money for subs as well. Maybe for a later time. My last band we put kick through 12s and it helped the mix. We didn't push it and I know subs are preferred.
    In the end we'll only play small to medium pubs/venues.
    Also found some mackie srm350 pair for £150 don't know if the 10 inch speaker will handle kick though 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 56973
    Unfortunately not enough money for subs as well. Maybe for a later time. My last band we put kick through 12s and it helped the mix. We didn't push it and I know subs are preferred.
    In the end we'll only play small to medium pubs/venues.
    Also found some mackie srm350 pair for £150 don't know if the 10 inch speaker will handle kick though 
    I would guess not.

    You could economise by only getting one sub, if you need to - subs are very un-directional, so you only really need one in a room - although that stops you using both of them as pole supports for the tops, avoiding stands.

    In fact, that's exactly the sort of set-up I have for small gigs - unpowered 10" tops with a traditional mixer amp, and a single powered 15" sub. It won't really do full-on rock band levels, but it's fine for quieter and acoustic stuff.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • LooseMooseLooseMoose Frets: 846
    Quality is more important than size.  If you can afford it, check out the Yamaha DXR series, they are insanely good.
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  • dilithium85dilithium85 Frets: 47
    Quality is more important than size.  If you can afford it, check out the Yamaha DXR series, they are insanely good.
    Can't afford it, not even second hand. Until my band get some gigs together I'll just get something loud and reliable.
    I've used two 12inch before for my louder rock band and I'll get a sub sooner than later
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  • hasslehamhassleham Frets: 394
    The SRM350's are great speakers and £150 for a pair is a really good price. Like others said I wouldn't bother sending a kick through them. 

    We've always used SRM450's for tops and they're awesome!

    If I were you i'd get the 350's as they're a bargain, then you can see how you like them and save up for a sub and eventually upgrade to some 12" tops and easily sell the 350s for what you paid. 

    Just check they're working properly first as people rag them and then wonder why they stop sounding good!
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 6870
    You can actually put a mic'ed up kick drum through a pair 2" computer speakers ... in the studio we do it all the time. The trick is to know how to tame a signal BEFORE it hits the speaker. If you just let the untamed transients hit the speaker you will tax it, even a 15" will struggle. So assuming you have something with some basic channel processing like an XR, QU, UI then basically 

    Remove everything the speaker can't handle ..... so high pass from 80hz to 40hz depending on the speaker. This isn't something you can do by ear ... if the speaker can't produce these low frequencies you won't hear them but the voice coil will be heating up. 

    Use a compressor to tame the large transients so the speaker doesn't have to wildly move from a few mm to an inch. As a starter set the ratio around 4:1 with a short attack and lower the threshold until you see at least 6dB of gain reduction on the largest hits. Obviously this is drummer dependent. The better the drummer the easier it is. For live use get the mic inside near the batter head as in that position it won't pick up as much wash from the cymbals. Compression makes unwanted spill more apparent so this helps.

    Repeat the same trick for bass guitar, big floor toms low end keys etc. 
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • dilithium85dilithium85 Frets: 47
    Mackie went before I had a chance to bid, so my search continues 
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  • StageStruckStageStruck Frets: 100
    I have a Peavey Pro15 & Phonic box mixer amp (375+375W per channel stereo). It's ok I suppose, if a bit of a no frills setup, never had any real complaints though. It's plenty loud enough for a rock/blues band playing pub gigs.  I'm not convinced that kick drum would sound very good through it along with vocals. As the other replies have stated, using a Sub would be a better option for this. I have on separate occasions had to DI a bass and guitar through it, though it wasn't at crazy volumes. It sounded passable, though the DI had a speaker emulation. 
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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 2041
    I'd borrow some money and get some RCF's..   I've had a few cheaper speakers including Mackie & Peavey's and the RCF712's  have been light years ahead of everything else.  I think even the 10inch ones will do do what you need.
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