Is Mixing what I need to learn?

Danny1969

You can certainly mix in all kinds of situations from crappy rooms to just cans but the worse the environment the more experienced you need to be. For example you can't make a decision on what's happening below 70Hz if you are mixing on a system that can't produce anything below that, you won't hear it. But with experience there are tricks you can employ that help. If the environment isn't great then check the mix in other environments before you sign it off ... cars, earbuds, laptop speaker, collapsed to mono on a phone etc. Obviously bear in mind a good mix comes form good arrangement first and anything that relies heavily on low frequency components needs some trickery to translate of todays shit mobile listening platforms. 

i just used to love mixing, I built a studio in my garage and installed a desk and the first Protools D24 system. I used to spend weeks mixing the same gigs and would record bands for nothing just to have something to mix. I enjoyed that so much I built a proper studio and designed a proper mix room. We built 18 custom bass traps for it, a ceiling cloud and had traps built into the main door and diffusion built into the pictures. You could walk into the corners and hardly hear any change. 
For monitoring we had NS10's, a pair of Panasonic floors and my fave Goodman speakers plus a little set of computer speaker. I made a little box that switched the output of the desk to the different speakers and I would mix on all 4 at different volumes. 

Mixing is like electronics or playing an instrument or playing sport. You can learn by yourself but of you listen to experienced people and actively want to learn you can get there so much quicker. My advice would be 

When recording don't use anything that needs processing to sound good. Just use a basic DAW and when you put the faders up you should be able to get a rough mix just with the faders. If not then somethings wrong. Rule 1, the better the tracking the less effort the mix is. 

So once you got your tracks ready to mix look at the levels. You don't want anything too hot, you need to allow a bit of headroom for processing and you need room on your master bus for mastering. 

Then just put an EQ and compressor on every track. Start with cuts and filters on the EQ. Almost everything will benefit from some lower mid taken out and these muddy lower mid frequencies build up across the tracks. Once you have made some cuts then look at the dynamics of the tracks. The more even you can get these dynamics the easier things will sit in the mix. Somethings like Kick, snare, bass guitar will need quite a lot of compression to even them out, as will the vocals and a moderate amount for guitars. But don't go crazy otherwise the whole mix will be hyper-compressed ... some of the evenness has to come from fader rides which is automation on a DAW (I'm old enough to remember doing this by hand in a professional studio) 
Then once your tracks have some basic EQ cuts and the dynamics are fairly even look at the panning. If you move things to the sides it creates width and you don't have to mix with volume so much .... the human brain decodes audio better  when 2 sounds  are separated in a space. 

Then create 2 aux channels. Put a reverb on one and a delay on the other. Set their input buses to bus 1 and bus 2. Set them post fader, not pre. Then add those buses to every channel. Now you can send some of the vocal and the snare etc to the reverb and some of the vocal to the delay. This is pretty much how a lot of records were made and pretty much all you need now to sound pretty decent. Sending all the tracks to a common reverb adds a kind of glue that keeps them sounding like they were recorded in the same environment. The panning is your left to right but your 3D depth come's from reverb and high EQ cuts. When something is further away the it picks up more reflections on the way to your ears than something nearer. It also loses treble as high frequencies lose their energy in air quicker than low frequencies. That's why the further you go the bassier it sounds until all that's left is bass. 

So to place something in a 3D mix, pan it and use reverb and EQ to place it further back or more forward

You can add more aux tracks ... I like a different reverb for the snare than I might use on the lead vocal but mainly things are going to the same verb bus just like they used when studios only had one or two  great reverbs. 

That's your basic mix template. There are many, many tricks you can employ like adding more busses for parallel drum compression and stacked vocal harmonies but in general just an EQ and compressor on every track, 2 aux sends for reverb and delay and some fader automation will get you 90% there. 

When doing the actual mix I follow Bob Clearmountains advice. Start with the vocal. Then build everything around that. You can often start with the drums, get them sounding huge then the guitars bigger and you might find theres no room for the vocal. 

Size come's from contrast. Want to make something sound big ? then lead in with something small first. Think of the intro to Teen Spirit, Everlong  or The less I know the better by Tame Impaler, they start deliberately small with limited dynamics and EQ bandwidth so when they kick in proper Hi Fi it sounds huge

I don't mix professionally anymore. I'm 52 and have been gig'ing for 38 years. My hearing is not good enough anymore. I send a rough mix and the stems via a Wetransfer to a guy in Dunstable and he does it all now. It's actually nice to hear it when it comes back. 

Bezzer

There's a lot of talk about room treatment here and yeah ... for a lot of us it's just not practical.

Here's what is, and Poopot already said it, reference tracks.

You can absolutely make great sounding tracks in headphones, you just have to know your headphones.  Things like Reference4 can help by fixing the EQ curve for a flatter sound but the best method is "make it sound like something you like by comparing on the same listening device (headphones)"

If you learn the environment you have, you'll be able to make good sounding tracks.  I honestly believe this.

TTony

Cirrus said:

Bose gear I've heard in the past has had a sound that's anything but transparent - usually it's hyped in various places to give the impression of bigness at the expense of clarity. I bet if you spent £150 on some headphones by Sennheiser, Shure, Beyerdynamic etc it'd be a big step up in terms of being able to critically listen to what you've got.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beyerdynamic-DT250-Headset-80-OHM/dp/B0002V9EA4/ref=psdc_564480_t2_B000IL4A66#



Good enough @cirrus (and anyone else who cares to comment?).  I'm happy spending ~£100, but don't really want to spend hundreds more, given that this is a fun thing, not anything too serious!


Thanks for the detailed advice @Danny1969 .    The quality of my hearing is probably another relevant constraint in all of this.  My ears are older than yours, and have spent many hours a day over many years with ear buds stuck down them to block out the noise of trains/commuting, etc.

steamabacus

What I don't think anyone has mentioned yet is ear training.

Even with 'a good set of ears', you won't necessarily be able to listen critically and properly analyse what you're hearing and what needs to change. All sensory input happens as much in the mind as in the sense organs - and can be trained.

If you're going to spend money, a decent ear training course would be a good place to start.

There used to be a good free online critcal listening course administered by Queen's University Belfast but they no longer seem to do that one. There are probably other options out there and it is something that can be done very successfully online.

I think there's a general misunderstanding that everybody hears everything the same and it's simply not true. Even beyond the physical differences in our hearing (aging, damage from loud gigs, etc) there's a whole world of interpretation happening inside our heads and, if you want to get better at mixing, it's a good idea to train some analytical listening as it will really pay dividends.

monquixote

One thing to mention is that it's easier to get clarity and separation when the parts are all quite tight. 

Listen critically and make sure all the bass notes and guitar stabs or whatever are falling on the right beats.
If not then it will always sound a bit messy and struggle for space.

TTony

Thanks @monquixote .

That was an early lesson I learned, ie that my timing really wasn't anywhere near as good as I'd thought it was!

Musicwolf

TTony said:

Cirrus said:

Bose gear I've heard in the past has had a sound that's anything but transparent - usually it's hyped in various places to give the impression of bigness at the expense of clarity. I bet if you spent £150 on some headphones by Sennheiser, Shure, Beyerdynamic etc it'd be a big step up in terms of being able to critically listen to what you've got.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beyerdynamic-DT250-Headset-80-OHM/dp/B0002V9EA4/ref=psdc_564480_t2_B000IL4A66#



Good enough @cirrus (and anyone else who cares to comment?).  I'm happy spending ~£100, but don't really want to spend hundreds more, given that this is a fun thing, not anything too serious!


Thanks for the detailed advice @Danny1969 .    The quality of my hearing is probably another relevant constraint in all of this.  My ears are older than yours, and have spent many hours a day over many years with ear buds stuck down them to block out the noise of trains/commuting, etc.

The DT250's are good headphones (I have a pair), but I wouldn't use them for mixing.  They are closed back which means that sound doesn't spill out from them (i.e. other people can hear them).  That makes them great for tracking when you are using a mic but they're not great for mixing.  For mixing I use an open backed pair (AKG K702's).  You can pickup a pair for a little over £100.

What you need to know is that the AKG's leak sound like a sieve so they're not much use for tracking or listening to stuff when other people are around.

poopot

@TTony we have this going now if you want the tracks?… don’t have to enter but it would be good practice for you and not anything you are close enough to to be hyper critical about.

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/211118/mix-challenge-are-friends-electric#latest

duotone

It definitely takes time. Every few months for the past 3/4 years I’ve downloaded a free track I like the sound of from https://www.cambridge-mt.com/ms/mtk/ & practised getting it to sound good to my ears. Often the released track is available on Spotify, so I can listen to how far away my effort comes! Then I can focus on one thing at a time & get it to sound closer to that mix.

I like using the Scheps Omni Channel https://www.waves.com/plugins/scheps-omni-channel#presenting-scheps-omni-channel  & don’t be afraid of using presets in whatever plug-ins you are using to see what sounds best & then tweaking those settings further, to see how that affects the sound. Don’t just obsess over how good a soloed instrument sounds, rather listen to the whole mix & tweak the sounds with everything playing. 

There are headphone mixing plugins that may be a good staring point for you (although I’ve never tried these), which some of the guys on here may have used & could recommend?? 

https://www.waves.com/plugins/headphone-mixing#sort:path~type~order=.default-order~number~asc|views:view=grid-view|paging:currentPage=0|paging:number=20

From the Waves website: “Mixing on headphones can help if you don’t have an acoustically great mix room. But headphones can deceive when it comes to mix depth, stereo image, ambience and low-end response. Waves’ headphone mixing plugins accurately recreate the three-dimensional acoustics of the world’s best studio control rooms, over any pair of headphones – so you can make better mixing decisions on your favorite headphones, anytime, anywhere.”

PolarityMan

One thing I've learned is that it's a shit ton easier if you out the effort in to get good tones at source. Having listened to a lot of URM sessions the raw tracks sound fucking great just with everything at unity and panned to centre a lot of the time.

octatonic

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Rowby1 said:

I’m going to swim against the tide a bit here. 

I think that familiarity with your monitoring and environment is actually more valuable than great monitors and room treatment. 

I agree with this. I don't think you need the perfect room and the best (read: most expensive monitors) - I've done great work on cheap Tannoy Reveals and cheap Focal Alphas.

It isn't a dealbreaker, but you can work faster if you have a better room and better monitoring.
If you are working in a mix factory where time is money then that matters.

There are technological solutions though.
I am installing a Trinnov system this weekend after reviewing their monitor controller tech with room correction included.
I am completely sold on it- it is incredible.
It is the fourth most expensive unit I have in the studio (after the Mac Pro, Kii Three monitors and Avid MTRX audio interface) but it really is worth the money imho.

Stuckfast

Yes! And if you were to have access to the multitrack of your favourite song from the ’70s you'd find mixing a piece of piss. Just bringing all the faders up to zero would give you something that sounds pretty damn good in most cases.

So if you're recording everything yourself, don't think 'Hopefully I can make this better at the mix.' Think: how can I record something that actually doesn't need mixing?

octatonic

Stuckfast said:

Yes! And if you were to have access to the multitrack of your favourite song from the ’70s you'd find mixing a piece of piss. Just bringing all the faders up to zero would give you something that sounds pretty damn good in most cases.

So if you're recording everything yourself, don't think 'Hopefully I can make this better at the mix.' Think: how can I record something that actually doesn't need mixing?

Agree 100%.

Danny1969

octatonic said:

Stuckfast said:

Yes! And if you were to have access to the multitrack of your favourite song from the ’70s you'd find mixing a piece of piss. Just bringing all the faders up to zero would give you something that sounds pretty damn good in most cases.

So if you're recording everything yourself, don't think 'Hopefully I can make this better at the mix.' Think: how can I record something that actually doesn't need mixing?

Agree 100%.

Yep, the better the tracking the easier the mix. Both sonically and performance wise.  This is why it is also cheaper for most common pop, country, soft rock productions to hire 4 or  5 decent session guys to go in, chart it and play rather than spend days putting things in time and  correcting intonation and other mistakes. I mixed some stuff for an Aussie artist that was recorded with the regular session crew of a decent studio in Texas and they were just so good at balancing themselves, especially the drummer. Only used kick and overheads with some snare verb return in the mix  and it sounded really good ... although my partner in the studio did a better mix which was the one used by the label. 

I found mixing drums in general the hardest part. I mean real drums, not samples. In hundreds of sessions I only really found 10 or 15 drummers that could balance themselves really well. 

Stuckfast

Danny1969 said:

I found mixing drums in general the hardest part. I mean real drums, not samples. In hundreds of sessions I only really found 10 or 15 drummers that could balance themselves really well. 

I know what you mean, but the more I do it, the more I prefer having real drums to mix even if the recording isn't amazing. Very few people can program sampled drums to make them sound like a real drummer, and it takes forever to do a good job. I'd always rather get a good player in for the afternoon. It's quicker and the results are so much better.

WiresDreamDisasters

I love mixing drums. When you get it right, everything else falls into place for me. It's always a challenge fitting in a ton of direct mics and a ton of room mics at the same time, but I love it.

chotu495

Lots of really great stuff in this thread 

Massive rabbit hole for us noobs, but sounds like fun.

If I can find the time, I might even have a try at the mixing comp 

WiresDreamDisasters

You could get involved in the mix challenges that @poopot does as well:
https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/211118/mix-challenge-are-friends-electric

TTony

WiresDreamDisasters said:

You could get involved in the mix challenges that @poopot does as well:
https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/211118/mix-challenge-are-friends-electric

Sounds like a plan.

Legionreturns

@TTony I'm not sure, as I use S1 Pro, but I think you get the FAT Channel plug in strip with Artist, and I can highly recommend having a play with that on your instrument tracks. It'll certainly give you a very good starting point.