Stage volume - why do sound guys hate it?

paulmapp8306

sjo89 said:

stickyfiddle said:

Quieter stages reduce mic feedback. That’s part of the soundguy’s job, so making that easier will always make him happier. 

The other aspect is balance of the mix for people in the room listening. What you ideally want is a good mix at a non-deafening volume, and that is much easier to achieve when the stuff on stage is quieter. It guarantees that the drum kit (and typically snare and loudest cymbal) is the loudest thing, so you have not need to bring the other volumes up to balance with that, rather than bringing everything up even further to balance an over-loud guitar amp (not to mention trying to avoid volume battles between guitarists wanting to turn up….)

The reason drums don’t get shit is because you can’t make them quieter without also changing their tone. Guitar amps have a volume control that goes down as well as up. 

The best mixes I ever had were always where we had everything micced with a decent sound guy and I had extra “me” in my monitor. Once you’re used to it you’ll always prefer that over a maxed-out amp but a mix no one enjoys.

Interesting.

Issue I've always had is I can never get enough me in my monitor as I do backup vocals too and that creates feedback issues through my mic - so actually when I use my own amp as a monitor as well as foldback, I can have less through the monitor and less feedback issues.

Use in ears  zero feedback....

paulmapp8306

sjo89 said:

 Also, does it not 'feel' naff having just IEM's? No bass freqs shaking your legs.

Actually the oposite.  Decent in ear phones with your own mix is a far better experience.

ChrisCox1994

So I run a pa company and play in bands so I see both sides. 

A lot of guitarists we do sound for aren't aware of their tone and how it translates into a room, they have too much bass, treble and gain usually and are just so loud we as sound engineers can't do anything to make it sound good.

Now if the guitarist has great tone out front we can rely on the amp for a good portion of the sound, but still can't have it blasting otherwise one person gets deafened I  the front row and noone else can hear you. 

Best thing to do, as usual, is to have a conversation with the sound person, get a vertical plexi shield if you're in a small club and invest in some personal monitoring.

PolarityMan

its because everyone is a bunch of pussies these days. Loud guitars are the sound of rock but everyone wants to mix like its some shitty jingle jangle indie band. Fuck off.

Danny1969

PolarityMan said:

its because everyone is a bunch of pussies these days. Loud guitars are the sound of rock but everyone wants to mix like its some shitty jingle jangle indie band. Fuck off.

To be fair that’s true and as a punter I want the bands I’m watching to be as loud and powerful as poss. 

I remember being at the album party for Networks at the Wedge  .. maybe 7 years ago. The sound literally slammed you and the low end could be felt like a breeze against your legs but it sounded so good 

Musicwolf

paulmapp8306 said:

sjo89 said:

 Also, does it not 'feel' naff having just IEM's? No bass freqs shaking your legs.

Actually the oposite.  Decent in ear phones with your own mix is a far better experience.

I’m absolutely loving playing with in ears.  I’m on single driver custom moulds but I’m probably going to treat myself to some multi driver moulds very soon to enhance the on stage experience even more.

shufflebeat

PolarityMan said:

its because everyone is a bunch of pussies these days. Loud guitars are the sound of rock but everyone wants to mix like its some shitty jingle jangle indie band. Fuck off.

ICBM

sjo89 said:

Preach. I also use my amp tilt stand. Never been asked to turn down since and can always hear myself clearly - sometimes too clearly! Also audience doesnt suffer. 

Seems really the issue isn't amps on stage or their volume, but more were they are pointing. Who needs a Kemper ey?!

Just to reinforce this again, have a look at the amps here - they're tilted so far back they're actually pointing above the heads of even the musicians on stage - Springsteen's 4x12"s especially. I've posted this or variations of it before I know, but it really does work.



For the sort of gigs I play, I prefer across the stage rather than up into the air simply because I like to hear more of my own amp and not rely on (usually crap) monitoring, but with better monitors even that wouldn't be an issue.

sjo89

Is there any R&D going into making quieter drums that arent electric? Let's be honest, all of these volume issues stem from everyone competing with insanely loud drum kit and yet you never hear of drummers being compelled to buy gear which makes them quieter.

vasselmeyer

sjo89 said:

Is there any R&D going into making quieter drums that arent electric? Let's be honest, all of these volume issues stem from everyone competing with insanely loud drum kit and yet you never hear of drummers being compelled to buy gear which makes them quieter.

There are plenty of kits using "flats" and there are decent ranges of low volume cymbals (I think up to 80% reduction for Zildjian low volume).

roberty

When a band's stage sound is supplemented by the PA it's called sound reinforcement, this is how I was taught to mix at the Dublin Castle. In small venues, as long as the stage sound is balanced and the vocalist can project it should be fine. Personally I like it

Winny_Pooh said:

Bleed into the vocal mic and audiemce members getting killed up front are issues.

Better to have amps firing across the stage instead pf straight out front but no one seems to do much of that? 

Monitors often never sound good enough IMO

I like firing amps across the stage too, surprised it isn't done more

PolarityMan said:

its because everyone is a bunch of pussies these days. Loud guitars are the sound of rock but everyone wants to mix like its some shitty jingle jangle indie band. Fuck off.

I find a lot of FOH rock mixes are like this, like a pop mix, very safe. In the pursuit of clarity something is lost

Stratavarious

Getting a good mix in IEMs, no feedback, no odd speaker beams killing the hearing of any audience in the wrong place.

You can wildly misjudge the volume if you are just guessing/monitoring with your amp.. completely different if shooting away from, or at you,

slacker

I've done some sound where the drums and backline were so loud, monitors were cranked, turning off FOH didn't make much difference. The vocals were on the point of feedback.

Imho everything to do with guitar amps is a compromise. I would love to stand in front of a stack but it's a 15w combo aimed at my back. With an overdrive.

That Springsteen picture shows that someone knows what they are doing and someone has listened. I've played bass and guitar in bands that big and its been a big sludgey mess.

sjo89

PolarityMan said:

its because everyone is a bunch of pussies these days. Loud guitars are the sound of rock but everyone wants to mix like its some shitty jingle jangle indie band. Fuck off.

I find a lot of FOH rock mixes are like this, like a pop mix, very safe. In the pursuit of clarity something is lost

This is so true and honestly, not that i go to many 'pop artist' gigs, but the live pop gigs I have been to in past few years have just seen so flat and uninspiring and without fail, they've featured silent stages (often with the drummer playing half the gig on electronic drum pads), backing tracks and a fairly tame FOH volume. You basically just watch a carbon copy reproduction of the recorded song, to the millisecond, and frankly, it sucks. 

I went to see Sigrid (who I love) a few years ago. She sang amazingly, the band were great, and yet I didnt really enjoy the gig. I could hear the crowd singing along more than I could actually hear her. The sound was sterile and too quiet and the songs just sounded like a slightly less polished version of the record. 

Something is being lost in the quest for "better" live sound - and I personally don't believe it is better. It's a whole other thread but click/backing tracks for one (shudder) should be for cover bands only!

PolarityMan

Also the best thing about being loud is that you can be quiet too.

If youre quiet you can only be quiet and inaudible. 

Dynamic range scales with volume

Caffeine_Vampire

Quiet stages remind me of the time I drove a purely electric car. I felt disconnected as if I wasn't really part of the machine that made it work, it was kind of like driving a coffin.

Trude

Has anybody gigged with one of those Barefaced cabs wound up to a decent stage volume? I'm wondering how much better it could be if they cure the directionality problem. 

Reverend

Relying on monitors is all well and good until you realise that means you'll not hear anything if the monitor engineer or set up is shit. 
I've had sound engineers insist I turn down but not put enough guitar in the mix in the monitor to be of any use, even after asking 5 times.

Also, my experience from playing and from tour managing across Europe and the States is a lot engineers are not great. I've seen Chris Fullard  get incredible live mixes so I know you can get a decent mix with crushing on stage amp volumes.

ICBM

Reverend said:

Relying on monitors is all well and good until you realise that means you'll not hear anything if the monitor engineer or set up is shit. 
I've had sound engineers insist I turn down but not put enough guitar in the mix in the monitor to be of any use, even after asking 5 times.

There's also the problem of using controlled feedback - it just doesn't seem to work well through wedge monitors, it's either hard to get any at all, or too difficult to control and tends to go into microphonic feedback and just squeal. You need the amp at least mostly behind you so you and the guitar body are between the speakers and the pickups.

roberty

I was taught to bleed the PA at the Dublin. Once you've done that you can really crank the vocal mic. Makes such a massive difference. Much of this is wasted if the singer can't project well though