Stage volume - why do sound guys hate it?

Bezzer

But it’s not is it, that may have been the intent but the thrust of the thread as a whole is “I want my amp cooking, why doesn’t everyone else bend to my will”.

No, I know that’s not everyone’s point before people come at me. But the viewpoint of the non-sound engineers here (who amazingly seem to be brushed over) is “if my amp ain’t loud then the band will sound shite”

@slacker put it better than I’ve managed. Both solutions work, of course they do, but trust the engineer who knows the venue. Take a hit to your preference for best quality.

It is not a “bogus” argument, it is a venue specific consideration. If the venue is capable of either then it is band preference. The over riding consideration of all things is the audience experience.

And if you don’t care about the audience experience… good luck getting a second gig.

WiresDreamDisasters

@Bezzer ;;

I don't really recognise any of your characterisations there. No-one here is arguing that amps should always be cranked and that everyone needs to bend to the guitarists will. And no one has said if the amp aint loud, then the band will sound shite. 

It does depend on the gig. If I was playing for We Will Rock You or some other stageplay, I'd have to go DI and I'd accept that. Because it isn't a 'rock show' revolving around guitars. It's a play.

But this thread isn't and was never about that. It was never about comparing types of gigs. It was about guitarists bearing the brunt of the "quiet stage" methodology. Bassists and drummers seem to get a pass, even though physically speaking, those instruments are louder and more disruptive to the audience than guitar is; context depending.

And it's not true that drummers can't be "turned down" - checkout my clip. Our drummer doesn't utterly twat his cymbals. And he's not constantly hitting his shells at full velocity. He has a sense of dynamics.

The worst drummers for this seem to be death-metal drummers. And you don't bloody need to use triggers on a kick drum when you're playing to 50 people in the Black Heart in Camden - c'mon guys!! Spread the word!! 

And since bass travels further because of the long waveforms, I've never really seen much sense in DI'ing the bass whilst also allowing the bassist on stage to have his amp super loud. In my 13+ years of gigging, I've noticed that bassists almost never get told to turn down. Even though when the bass is loud, the guitars have to be louder in order to compete.

Part of my perspective is that the guitars are often pointed at first, as the source of a bad mix. But more often than not, the guitarist is just compensating for some other element of the mix that is stepping outside of it's lane.

At that same gig last week, there was one guy using a Kemper rack. I was stood in the front 3 rows (yes I'm fat) and it sounded like a cranked amp+cab on stage to me. So I honestly didn't see the benefit of him using a Kemper; it certainly was not bringing down the stage volume!!

fastonebaz

I bet this stage wasn't quiet. Imagine playing that one,  it'd be awesome. 

Keefy

fastonebaz said:

I bet this stage wasn't quiet. Imagine playing that one,  it'd be awesome. 

He's actually got a 10W Gorilla combo mic'd up behind that lot.

sjo89

Bezzer said:

But it’s not is it, that may have been the intent but the thrust of the thread as a whole is “I want my amp cooking, why doesn’t everyone else bend to my will”.

No, I know that’s not everyone’s point before people come at me. But the viewpoint of the non-sound engineers here (who amazingly seem to be brushed over) is “if my amp ain’t loud then the band will sound shite”

@slacker put it better than I’ve managed. Both solutions work, of course they do, but trust the engineer who knows the venue. Take a hit to your preference for best quality.

It is not a “bogus” argument, it is a venue specific consideration. If the venue is capable of either then it is band preference. The over riding consideration of all things is the audience experience.

And if you don’t care about the audience experience… good luck getting a second gig.

As the person who started this thread, I can tell you that at no point have I made the argument that I want my amp "cooking" regardless of how it sounds. My argument has always been that lots of sound guys want the stage as quiet as possible, simply because thats the trend these days. And I say this is all well and good if theres good foldback for the crowd at the front of the stage and the monitoring is good, but this is seldom the case.

And I and several others have agreed that the band should be "acoustically" balanced, with the PA there to support and enhance. And with a loud drummer, this requires a loud amp. I've also said amps should not be pointed directly at crowd.

And as such, the idea that you cant have loud amps on stage full stop, is bogus. If pointed in the right direction (maybe even backwards) and balanced you clearly can. 

My issue is sound guys wanting ultimate control and trying to make a live gig sound like a hifi record. I don't want it to sound like a record - I want it to sound live! I want to feel the volume. If I'm near the front, I don't want to feel like the sound is coming from behind me (which happens a lot).

The whole guitarist with an ego thing is a separate conversation to this one.

Bezzer

@sjo89 again apologies my typing let me down again. The sentence was intended to be “it may NOT have been the intent of the thread”.

I do worry my comments have been taken as aggressive which is not the intent at all.

My point has always been a simple one and I think most people gigging in various venues will agree, we all have our preference as to the level of stage volume, and that’s all groovy. But bands … and it’s all members really but to some extent you have to exclude singers and drummers because of the inherent limitations therein … need to bend according to the needs of the venue. That was all.

That and my belief that gigs are for the audience not the band. You want them to come back, buy your music, buy your merchandise. So you should play for them. 

I’ll bow out now as clearly I’m coming across as a noise facist, which I’m not, I was merely trying to provide the other side of the argument.

RocknRollDave

Personally, I love a quiet stage and being able to hear myself clearly in my in-ears, so that my vocals stand a chance of being pitched properly. 
I've been at (pro) gigs where the soundman has clearly struggled to balance everything against an over-loud guitar amp. (Gary Moore, for example).

sjo89

RocknRollDave said:

Personally, I love a quiet stage and being able to hear myself clearly in my in-ears, so that my vocals stand a chance of being pitched properly. 
I've been at (pro) gigs where the soundman has clearly struggled to balance everything against an over-loud guitar amp. (Gary Moore, for example).

Key word being "over-loud" - my issue is always when my guitar amp is really not loud at all and im being asked to turn it down beyond the point whereby i can even hear it. And then they proceed to refuse to give me enough of it in the monitors.

ICBM

p90fool said:

This is our solution, my missus plays an Arbiter Flats kit with light sticks and cymbals and a well-damped snare, and the backline is turned down to match. 

PA guys love it, it mics up beautifully because it's always well tuned due to its single tension rod system, and there are no resonant heads, shells or rattly bits.

Flats are great, the drummer in my originals band has a set too. The only minor problem is that you have to use deliberately crap cymbals in order that they don't overpower the whole kit (and band).

sjo89

What do we think about electric kits? Amp and cab sims have been at a very high level for 15 years now give or take and yet, not knowing much about them admittedly, it seems that you can't get a realistic sounding electric kit for a reasonable price? Am i wrong?

Musicwolf

sjo89 said:

What do we think about electric kits? Amp and cab sims have been at a very high level for 15 years now give or take and yet, not knowing much about them admittedly, it seems that you can't get a realistic sounding electric kit for a reasonable price? Am i wrong?

It very much depends upon your drummer.  I've worked with a few guys who couldn't bare so much as the mention of an electronic kit whereas I've worked with another guy who absolutely loved his.  The electronic kit sounded great and it also improved his drumming because he could pracice on it at home without upsetting the neighbours.

If a drummer in either of my bands said that he wanted to use an electronic kit I'd be more than happy, but I would never try to push them into using  one.  I'm very happy to use amp simulators but I don't think that I'd be happy with someone else telling me that I had to use one.

sjo89

Musicwolf said:

sjo89 said:

What do we think about electric kits? Amp and cab sims have been at a very high level for 15 years now give or take and yet, not knowing much about them admittedly, it seems that you can't get a realistic sounding electric kit for a reasonable price? Am i wrong?

It very much depends upon your drummer.  I've worked with a few guys who couldn't bare so much as the mention of an electronic kit whereas I've worked with another guy who absolutely loved his.  The electronic kit sounded great and it also improved his drumming because he could pracice on it at home without upsetting the neighbours.

If a drummer in either of my bands said that he wanted to use an electronic kit I'd be more than happy, but I would never try to push them into using  one.  I'm very happy to use amp simulators but I don't think that I'd be happy with someone else telling me that I had to use one.

I think the issue is the aesthetics more than anything else tbh...

Trude

There's no real comparison between amp modellers and electronic kits imo. Electronic kits have their place, but unless you're paying top dollar, the tactile feel and response is totally different to an acoustic kit. We rehearse with one, and the lack of dynamic range is seriously annoying at times, and I'm not even the one playing it.

The guitar analogy would be more akin to playing a MIDI guitar triggering samples with rubber strings, or something along those lines.

I'd only use one live as a last resort.

sjo89

Trude said:

There's no real comparison between amp modellers and electronic kits imo. Electronic kits have their place, but unless you're paying top dollar, the tactile feel and response is totally different to an acoustic kit. We rehearse with one, and the lack of dynamic range is seriously annoying at times, and I'm not even the one playing it.

The guitar analogy would be more akin to playing a MIDI guitar triggering samples with rubber strings, or something along those lines.

I'd only use one live as a last resort.

Well sh*t, if we have to adapt so should they lol!

slacker

In my current band we rehearsed in my music room with a Roland kit for a while. It worked but the drummer wanted to use a rehearsal room. We tried it and it was a lot better.

However one advantage was that the other guitarist and I were so used to getting a decent sound at low volume that we never have volume wars and I don't use ear plugs.

I'm not a drummer but riot shield pads are unforgiving and mesh heads are ok. I understand why a drummer wouldn't like them personally the investment has been good as we saved a lot of rehearsal room costs.

p90fool

ICBM said:

p90fool said:

This is our solution, my missus plays an Arbiter Flats kit with light sticks and cymbals and a well-damped snare, and the backline is turned down to match. 

PA guys love it, it mics up beautifully because it's always well tuned due to its single tension rod system, and there are no resonant heads, shells or rattly bits.

Flats are great, the drummer in my originals band has a set too. The only minor problem is that you have to use deliberately crap cymbals in order that they don't overpower the whole kit (and band).

@ICBM tell him to try Dream Bliss cymbals, they're the right volume for a Flats kit and cheap, too. 

Danny1969

Regarding E drums you can get aways with the kick and the toms mostly but electronic snares really suck, as do the hats and rides. There's not enough resolution in the available velocity curves or the tone changes as it's hit harder or softer. I've seen ACDC tributes get use them to good effect but anything with ghost notes or other subtleties generally sounds pretty bad on E kits . 

mike257

WiresDreamDisasters said:

@Bezzer ;;

But this thread isn't and was never about that. It was never about comparing types of gigs. It was about guitarists bearing the brunt of the "quiet stage" methodology. Bassists and drummers seem to get a pass, even though physically speaking, those instruments are louder and more disruptive to the audience than guitar is; context depending.

And since bass travels further because of the long waveforms, I've never really seen much sense in DI'ing the bass whilst also allowing the bassist on stage to have his amp super loud. In my 13+ years of gigging, I've noticed that bassists almost never get told to turn down. Even though when the bass is loud, the guitars have to be louder in order to compete.

I probably ask more bassists to turn down than I do guitarists. Lost count of the shows I've mixed where there's no bass in the PA whatsoever and it's still dominating the lower midrange and basically spoiling my day - and I'm a bassist! 

And I and several others have agreed that the band should be "acoustically" balanced, with the PA there to support and enhance. And with a loud drummer, this requires a loud amp. I've also said amps should not be pointed directly at crowd.

And as such, the idea that you cant have loud amps on stage full stop, is bogus. If pointed in the right direction (maybe even backwards) and balanced you clearly can. 

My issue is sound guys wanting ultimate control and trying to make a live gig sound like a hifi record. I don't want it to sound like a record - I want it to sound live! I want to feel the volume. If I'm near the front, I don't want to feel like the sound is coming from behind me (which happens a lot).

I think there's a difference in perspective here - as a sound guy, if I have more control over the balance, I can emphasise the dynamics in the performance, give prominence to the appropriate melodic elements at the right times in the song, and generally make it a kicking, powerful, dynamic experience for the audience - I don't want to make it sound like a record, but I do want to make it sound like a powerful, dynamic performance.

If there's one or more elements on stage that are dominating acoustically in the room, be it a snare drum, a guitar or a bass, then that immediately restricts my ability to do that - because it stops me making space for other elements when I need to push them forward - I either have to bring everything up to that level, which brings its own problems, or I just have to accept that one particular source is going to swallow everything and that there's fuck all I can do about it. 

sjo89

mike257 said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

@Bezzer ;;

But this thread isn't and was never about that. It was never about comparing types of gigs. It was about guitarists bearing the brunt of the "quiet stage" methodology. Bassists and drummers seem to get a pass, even though physically speaking, those instruments are louder and more disruptive to the audience than guitar is; context depending.

And since bass travels further because of the long waveforms, I've never really seen much sense in DI'ing the bass whilst also allowing the bassist on stage to have his amp super loud. In my 13+ years of gigging, I've noticed that bassists almost never get told to turn down. Even though when the bass is loud, the guitars have to be louder in order to compete.

I probably ask more bassists to turn down than I do guitarists. Lost count of the shows I've mixed where there's no bass in the PA whatsoever and it's still dominating the lower midrange and basically spoiling my day - and I'm a bassist! 

And I and several others have agreed that the band should be "acoustically" balanced, with the PA there to support and enhance. And with a loud drummer, this requires a loud amp. I've also said amps should not be pointed directly at crowd.

And as such, the idea that you cant have loud amps on stage full stop, is bogus. If pointed in the right direction (maybe even backwards) and balanced you clearly can. 

My issue is sound guys wanting ultimate control and trying to make a live gig sound like a hifi record. I don't want it to sound like a record - I want it to sound live! I want to feel the volume. If I'm near the front, I don't want to feel like the sound is coming from behind me (which happens a lot).

I think there's a difference in perspective here - as a sound guy, if I have more control over the balance, I can emphasise the dynamics in the performance, give prominence to the appropriate melodic elements at the right times in the song, and generally make it a kicking, powerful, dynamic experience for the audience - I don't want to make it sound like a record, but I do want to make it sound like a powerful, dynamic performance.

If there's one or more elements on stage that are dominating acoustically in the room, be it a snare drum, a guitar or a bass, then that immediately restricts my ability to do that - because it stops me making space for other elements when I need to push them forward - I either have to bring everything up to that level, which brings its own problems, or I just have to accept that one particular source is going to swallow everything and that there's fuck all I can do about it. 

I could be biased. But I’ve never been to a gig and thought the guitar was TOO loud. Ive been to many where I thought the vocals were too quiet or the drums were too loud. 

In fact my biggest issue is tinny, piercing vocals combing with over miced cymbals. It’s like knives in the ear. I’ll take an over loud guitar over a balanced mix that pierces my eardrums any day!

WiresDreamDisasters

Here's a review of the festival we played:
https://theprogressiveaspect.net/blog/2021/09/19/portals-festival/?fbclid=IwAR2jv-62SOPfH2XPWJwvchazT_VLcUOftkc-tAi4hQCRi6YGA0f7gh7Gseg

A few mentions of a couple of bands being too loud there.