Going cab-less + IEM's.

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I know there's been a few other threads about IEM and direct to FOH setups from digital amps but I didn't want to piggy back someone else's topic...

Was chatting with a mate last night about returning to the live scene again and we both have Kemper power racks and would like to go down the cab-less route, and IEM's. Now for years I've been a 4x12 with a mic in front and a monitor wedge, but now is the time to start thinking about in-ears.

My knowledge of the setup and how it would work is pretty limited, all I know is the the FOH would get the xlr out from the Kemper which the crowd would hear, but then where would a (wireless) IEM system plug into so we can hear the mix? Is there a separate mixer we need to get? And is there a way of monitoring our own mix WE hear but Mr Soundguy controls FOH? 
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  • I'm taking it from your description that it won't be your PA system / sound guy?

    If that's the case, and you want full control, then you'll need mic splitters and a seperate desk (something like a Behringer XR-18).  The XR-18 would give you 6 aux outs + main (which could be used an additional monitor mix if this was an IEM only desk).  You can pair aux outs for stereo so max of 4 sperate stereo mixes with full control.  Control your own mix from a tablet or your phone.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    edited September 2021
    No it won't be.

    And yes The XR-18 has been mentioned a few times but its the mic splitter I missed which make sense so sound guy has a signal and so will we? It's gonna take me a while to get my head round how we hook everything up and where the signals fire off to but I gotta start somewhere.

    Basically they're a 5 piece punk band - usual line up vocals, 2 x guitarists, bass player and drummer. So how would they do the whole connections?

    And my mate wants to do the wireless IEM thing so I think a transmitter/receiver pack thing needs to come in here? I use the Shure SE535's but they're cabled currently only cos I use them mainly at home.
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    Here's my splitter rack. You can see 2 x 8 channel 19" rack mic splitters at the top and then the digital desk at the bottom. 
    There's another 2 splits I made myself using Neutrik transformers at the back to give me 18 splits



    So everything is mic'ed and plugged into the front of the splitters. Now each mic signal has 2 outs. One transformer coupled out is sent to the inputs of the Soundcraft digital desk in the bottom and those cables are permanently left plugged in.

    The Venue FOH take their feed from the other split per channel and to help them out the channel input is listed on the back of the rack mixer next to the splits, Kick 1, Snare 2 etc. There's also a light in the back so they can see the numbers on a dark stage. 

    I've been on IEM's for 12 years or so but normally use a mic;ed amp. Last night was the first time I have just used a Pod Go's main outs directly into the mixer. Can't say I liked the sound too much, sounded a bit harsh to me compared to my normal valve amp but maybe I can improve my patches. 

    Going completely cab-less and going onto IEM's will be a culture shock for a lot of bands used to playing ol skool. There's a few things you need to improve the experience such as 

    Stereo aux sends for panned stereo IEM's. The human brain hears more detail in sound if things are separated in the stereo field. So you pan the drums as they are in reference to you onstage. Keyboards should be full stereo, likewise the guitar modeller. Basically you want a detailed studio type mix where everything is clear. So you need stereo,  This is as essential now as clean drinking water and good wifi. Mono IEM's are barbaric and best avoided. That Soundcraft I use can give 7 stereo IEM feeds which is great. 

    Vibe mic's .... I set 2 boundry mics up at the front of the stage to give us some vibe from the audience. This is in stereo and really helps with the vibe as as audience mics for live recording 

    Verb in ears ....  When you are using splits you can have custom verbs in your ears to help negate the dryness of no cabs onstage. As FOH get their split without any processing you can set this entirely independent of what verb  / delay etc they want to use. 

    Good IEM fit ..... For best results you need a good seal to block out the ambient noise. This allows you to have a reduced IEM volume level but still hear everything perfectly. 


    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • Thanks for the pic @Danny1969 so if you play a venue with a desk already in there and a soundguy does the bottom blue Soundcraft mix get sent to them? 

    With your top 2 rows there's basically 16 available xlr channels to mic up a whole band right? Where exactly would IEM's be plugged into?
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357

    Thanks for the pic @Danny1969 so if you play a venue with a desk already in there and a soundguy does the bottom blue Soundcraft mix get sent to them? 

    With your top 2 rows there's basically 16 available xlr channels to mic up a whole band right? Where exactly would IEM's be plugged into?
    No, the soundcraft UI mixer is only running our IEM's ... the venue FOH mixer gets the other split which is a direct connection to the mic that's being split. 

    So chain is Mic - signal split into 2 then one split goes to my IEM rack and the venue FOH gets the other. 

    IEM's run from Aux sends. These are male sockets indicating signal is slowing out  ..... each band member gets 2 aux sends for a stereo mix so something like this

    Drummer Aux 1 and 2, bass player aux 3 and 4, keys player aux 5 and 6, me aux 7 and 8. Singer aux 9 and 10. On my soundcraft you can route more aux sends to the headphone sockets giving another 2 stereo pairs. 

    The signal out the aux sends then goes to a wireless  IEM transmitter or direct to a headphone amplifier. If you are using wireless then the receiver unit you put on your belt has a headphone amp. For drummers, keys players etc who are static wireless is pointless so these tend to use small mixers for a headphone amp or a little behringer headphone amp or similar. 

    I use the same guitar combiner cables I have been selling for years. These send the IEM signal up the same cable you use to plug the guitar into the amp/ pedal board/ modeller etc. It's just a 5 core cable, 2 for guitar and 3 for IEM feed. 

    Finally you adjust whats coming out of the aux sends in terms of drums .guitar, vocals etc with an ap that runs from a phone, iPad, laptop. In this way you pan things, set levels etc until you have a great IEM sound
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • paulmapp8306paulmapp8306 Frets: 831
    edited September 2021
    Ye p - were doing the same thing.  We run an XR18 with our own PA BUT we carry Y cables (short 12" ones) that we can instert before the mixers input if we use a soundman.  He gets the raw feeds and can do what he wants, we all get out own In ear mix we control ourselves (each with a pad to control his/her own mix).

    As for the in ear part, we run a combination of stuff.  Vocalist and guitarist get a feed from the rack via Senny transmitters/receivers.  Drummer bassist and myself use the Xvive setup which is really small.  We do run XLR cables from the Aux outs to our "stage position" and plug the transmitter into that - it adds a lot of separation and takes them away from the mixers router antenna.   Precautionary more than anything. 
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  • For the XR-18 I've treated myself to a P16-M personal mixer for my wired IEM feed.

    It attaches to my mic stand, connects to the XR-18 via an ethernet cable, and gives me direct control of 16 channels of audio.  It also means that I'm not tying up any aux busses on the XR-18 and I find it a lot easier to use than a phone.  Not the cheapest option at £200 for the mixer and £50 for the mic stand clamp - but well worth it as far as I'm concerned as having a decent IEM mix makes life so much more enjoyable.
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  • Danny1969 said:

    Thanks for the pic @Danny1969 so if you play a venue with a desk already in there and a soundguy does the bottom blue Soundcraft mix get sent to them? 

    With your top 2 rows there's basically 16 available xlr channels to mic up a whole band right? Where exactly would IEM's be plugged into?
    No, the soundcraft UI mixer is only running our IEM's ... the venue FOH mixer gets the other split which is a direct connection to the mic that's being split. 

    So chain is Mic - signal split into 2 then one split goes to my IEM rack and the venue FOH gets the other. 

    IEM's run from Aux sends. These are male sockets indicating signal is slowing out  ..... each band member gets 2 aux sends for a stereo mix so something like this

    Drummer Aux 1 and 2, bass player aux 3 and 4, keys player aux 5 and 6, me aux 7 and 8. Singer aux 9 and 10. On my soundcraft you can route more aux sends to the headphone sockets giving another 2 stereo pairs. 

    The signal out the aux sends then goes to a wireless  IEM transmitter or direct to a headphone amplifier. If you are using wireless then the receiver unit you put on your belt has a headphone amp. For drummers, keys players etc who are static wireless is pointless so these tend to use small mixers for a headphone amp or a little behringer headphone amp or similar. 

    I use the same guitar combiner cables I have been selling for years. These send the IEM signal up the same cable you use to plug the guitar into the amp/ pedal board/ modeller etc. It's just a 5 core cable, 2 for guitar and 3 for IEM feed. 

    Finally you adjust whats coming out of the aux sends in terms of drums .guitar, vocals etc with an ap that runs from a phone, iPad, laptop. In this way you pan things, set levels etc until you have a great IEM sound
    Ah so essentially there's 2 mixers going on - one for the band and one for the soundguy? Hence the "splitter". I think I'm slowly starting to get the picture.

    When we were talking last night he was saying about how incompetent sound guys have blown guitarist's ear drums by cranking a level and then the highest possible threshold of sound passes through to their in-ears then deafening them, probably why he mentioned the need for controlling his own mix.

    I think if we can get round the basic signal chain we might be able to get it going, as you say going from mic'd tube amps to direct FOH is going to be a bit weird to start off with.
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  • WhistlerWhistler Frets: 322
    edited September 2021
    Danny1969 said:
    Going completely cab-less and going onto IEM's will be a culture shock for a lot of bands used to playing ol skool.
    I am working with two bands, moving them over to IEMs. Instead of doing a full instantaneous switchover, I started by introducing IEMs to those who wanted to try (or avoiding those that just turned their nose up at the idea, depending on how you view the situation) and reduced their respective monitors by 6dB. This way they have time to acclimatise to the different sound and have the volume of their IEMs to fill in for the quieter monitors. Once they are happy, we quietened their monitors further and let them increase the volume in their IEMs and the last step was to silence their monitors.

    Also, we started by only using IEMs at rehearsals until each musician was happy to use them live.

    This will not be the right course for every band but bear it in mind in case you find someone who finds the change in sound too much and they become resistant to change. Smaller steps can help.
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  • sjo89sjo89 Frets: 182
    Just wondering about the logistics of this kind of setting up if you're one of say three support bands with a 30 min slot and 10 minute turn around? Seems to me like a bit of a faff and time consuming or am I wrong? Do sound guys roll their eyes if they see you turn up with a big IEM rig? Also looks kind pricey!

    I like the idea of having a consistent in ear mix for each gig and also protecting your ears. But for a band at our level (only gigging a few years, mostly small venues and support slots) it seems like an unnecessary addition right now? 
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    sjo89 said:
    Just wondering about the logistics of this kind of setting up if you're one of say three support bands with a 30 min slot and 10 minute turn around? Seems to me like a bit of a faff and time consuming or am I wrong? Do sound guys roll their eyes if they see you turn up with a big IEM rig? Also looks kind pricey!

    I like the idea of having a consistent in ear mix for each gig and also protecting your ears. But for a band at our level (only gigging a few years, mostly small venues and support slots) it seems like an unnecessary addition right now? 
    Well it cost around 2K to hire the band I play in that uses that IEM rig so support bands and such aren't an issue. One of the most time consuming aspects of soundchecks at a random venue are doing IEM's so it's actually quicker from a venue FOH point of view if the band use a splitter rack. it also means the venues own mic leads are going from one place to the stage box rather than all over the stage to the stage box. This means they can use a couple of looms rather than 20 mic cables. We have our own mic's and own looms so basically do half the normal FOH mic;ing up work. 

    I do loads of stuff that is festival based with quick change overs though and you're right .... you can't turn up and expect everything to be re-patched for you. At a situation like that you either go with the wedges that are already there or you take a pass through off the wedge if it's active . I like doing the odd gig with no IEM's ... especially if it's a rock gig or if I'm dep'ing and working with others who don't use them. 

    IEM's are only essential if you do a lot of gigs, a few loud gigs a month probably wont't hurt a lot but when you''re involved in a lot of stuff and can be doing 12 gigs a month then you are obviously at more of a risk. I was quite lucky having switched about 12 years ago but some of my muso friends left it a bit late and have permantly damaged their ears. 
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • sjo89sjo89 Frets: 182
    Danny1969 said:
    sjo89 said:
    Just wondering about the logistics of this kind of setting up if you're one of say three support bands with a 30 min slot and 10 minute turn around? Seems to me like a bit of a faff and time consuming or am I wrong? Do sound guys roll their eyes if they see you turn up with a big IEM rig? Also looks kind pricey!

    I like the idea of having a consistent in ear mix for each gig and also protecting your ears. But for a band at our level (only gigging a few years, mostly small venues and support slots) it seems like an unnecessary addition right now? 
    Well it cost around 2K to hire the band I play in that uses that IEM rig so support bands and such aren't an issue. One of the most time consuming aspects of soundchecks at a random venue are doing IEM's so it's actually quicker from a venue FOH point of view if the band use a splitter rack. it also means the venues own mic leads are going from one place to the stage box rather than all over the stage to the stage box. This means they can use a couple of looms rather than 20 mic cables. We have our own mic's and own looms so basically do half the normal FOH mic;ing up work. 

    I do loads of stuff that is festival based with quick change overs though and you're right .... you can't turn up and expect everything to be re-patched for you. At a situation like that you either go with the wedges that are already there or you take a pass through off the wedge if it's active . I like doing the odd gig with no IEM's ... especially if it's a rock gig or if I'm dep'ing and working with others who don't use them. 

    IEM's are only essential if you do a lot of gigs, a few loud gigs a month probably wont't hurt a lot but when you''re involved in a lot of stuff and can be doing 12 gigs a month then you are obviously at more of a risk. I was quite lucky having switched about 12 years ago but some of my muso friends left it a bit late and have permantly damaged their ears. 
    We and 2 other bands supported a band a few weeks back. It took them 90 mins to get all their gear setup and working (which nobody appreciated!). They were just an indie rock band but the guitarists were going direct with modellers, they had BT's, a keys player and their own IEM system. The IEM system was playing up during sound check and they had to abandon it for wedges. The keys weren't working for a good 15 mins. Then during the gig one of the guitarists signal started clipping like crazy making this horrible distorted noise to the point in between songs he had to awkwardly ask sound guy to help fix it.

    Meanwhile, my band is a rock 4 piece. We just plugged our pedals into the backline amps, used the wedges and were up and running no issues within about 5 mins of stepping on stage. And our music isnt 'simple' - we use lots of FX and pads and stuff, but it all comes from the pedals and we do it all live with no BT - Radiohead style.

    Sometimes, simple is better i guess? Certainly not a fan of backing tracks - you can always feel when a band is playing to a click as it feels rigid and constrained and sterile IMO. I often feel people play more "in time" without a click - it grooves better.
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  • sjo89 said:
    Just wondering about the logistics of this kind of setting up if you're one of say three support bands with a 30 min slot and 10 minute turn around? Seems to me like a bit of a faff and time consuming or am I wrong? Do sound guys roll their eyes if they see you turn up with a big IEM rig? Also looks kind pricey!

    I like the idea of having a consistent in ear mix for each gig and also protecting your ears. But for a band at our level (only gigging a few years, mostly small venues and support slots) it seems like an unnecessary addition right now? 
    Not really.  If you split and have your own digital mixer, the foh just get feeds abd the in ear mix will be saved on the mixer, so just plug in....  
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  • Just a few thoughts on this, (I'm late to the party I know!)

    We've also started using IEM's in the last few months and it's been an absolute game changer for the whole band. It's not been a painless process but now we've been through the learning process we're all converts to the set up. Particularly our singer who had blown his voice out a few years back, he commented last night that since switching over it's effortless for him to sing as he's not struggling to hear himself.

    We're also using the Soundcraft UI24r, which is all pre-wired to the wireless units and it only takes a few minutes to set up, certainly no longer than Wedges used to be. On stage sound is vastly improved and we're not fighting feedback anymore. We can also record multitrack files of our sessions using a USB stick.

    Guitar wise we're using a hybrid system, we're choosing to use guitar cabs mic'd up with Sennheiser e906's much of the time so we get all the goodness of valve heads/feedback etc but the clarity of IEMS. However, both of us also have the option of Two Notes Captor X's if we wanna go completely cab-less (we have some gigs booked in for this later in the year.) Drummer has also bought a nice new electric kit, which has the added benefit that we can bring the overall volume down as much as we like, not very rock n'roll I know but it's definitely gonna benefit us in certain venues.

    In terms of the IEM units themselves, our singer is using the Shure PSM300, our drummer is using the Behringer P2 wired unit, and the rest of us are using the cheap and nasty Gear4Music Systems at the moment. They are extremely plasticy, only have 6 channels, and have no adjustment for input levels, which in most circumstances would make them very difficult to use. BUT they are now mounted in the rack case so unlikely to get damaged, and the UI24 allows us to put Compressors, EQ, Noise Gates etc etc on each individual Aux Output, so the limitations aren't really that much of a problem. They seem to do the job ok in this set up, but I'm sure we're going to upgrade in the not too distant future though.

    The next step will probably be incorporating CAT5 connections to speed set up and splitting even further.

    Our singer made the point last night that previously we were all using about 20% of our concentration to try and hear what was going on, that's now gone and we're all playing better because we're just concentrating on our playing instead. That allows me time to overplay and insert unnecessary and unwarranted pinch harmonics. Which is wonderful for everyone obviously.
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  • stevebsteveb Frets: 42
    Quick question! Are the soundcraft ui24 aux out stereo or mono?? 
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  • steveb said:
    Quick question! Are the soundcraft ui24 aux out stereo or mono?? 
    It's got x 8 Individual Mono XLR Aux Outputs that can be paired for Stereo. Just allocate them as Stereo on the settings on the software (e.g. Aux 1&2, 3&4 etc...) You can then also patch the headphone output to be an additional Stereo Aux output. That provides a lot of flexibility in terms of configuration, but we run x 5 Stereo Aux Outputs.  You could obviously have any combination of Stereo and Mono you want, so if you wanted some for iems, some for Wedges etc you can do it really easily. It's a really flexible unit. Biggest tip would be to set up an external router with it as it'll be a lot more reliable than the built in wifi. (It's pretty straight forward, I managed it an I'm useless at tech stuff!)
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  • TrudeTrude Frets: 914
    That allows me time to overplay and insert unnecessary and unwarranted pinch harmonics. Which is wonderful for everyone obviously.
    This is more like it - a benefit nobody can deny, surely?
    Some of the gear, some idea

    Trading feedback here
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    Bringing up this thread to ask a slightly different - but kinda related question.

    If we were to be a one-guitar only band, and I wanted to use my Kemper to split two signals as if I was using 2 cabs on stage (just without the 2nd physical cab), could I do it? So FOH takes 1 mic'd up speaker cab and then the direct signal straight from the Kemper?

    Or would it just be better to have 2 physical cabs on the stage and split my Kemper's speaker out signal?
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  • Reviving this thread as the last band I was in are reuniting to play a show next month and I plan to use my Kemper for it!!

    We aren't a fancy enough band to have the rack splitter stuff that @Danny1969 showed above, but, we are going to get a budget IEM system (D Debra U something name) with multiple bodypacks between us.

    Now, from reading up about this online I understand that I send my Kemper main outputs to the sound desk at the venue. I believe its an Allen & Heath digital one, not sure what model. Will there be anything between the XLR cable between my Kemper and the desk? I.e a DI or stage box? The desk is quite a way away from the stage so can't imagine a 40ft xlr cable running across the room. If its an xlr connection the signal will be a mic one and be pretty hot so I'll almost certainly have to turn my -12db function on and maybe come down a bit more on the main output volume? It's at -12db as default but I think I may have to do take another few db off.

    Secondly, with the IEM system my understanding is the desk mix feed goes into the receiver box then sends out the mix to all our in-ears packs. We can only control the master volume of the mix, not the actual mix itself (e.g if I want more kick or snare, bass etc).

    Have I got this correct?
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  • Reviving this thread as the last band I was in are reuniting to play a show next month and I plan to use my Kemper for it!!

    We aren't a fancy enough band to have the rack splitter stuff that @Danny1969 showed above, but, we are going to get a budget IEM system (D Debra U something name) with multiple bodypacks between us.

    Now, from reading up about this online I understand that I send my Kemper main outputs to the sound desk at the venue. I believe its an Allen & Heath digital one, not sure what model. Will there be anything between the XLR cable between my Kemper and the desk? I.e a DI or stage box? The desk is quite a way away from the stage so can't imagine a 40ft xlr cable running across the room. If its an xlr connection the signal will be a mic one and be pretty hot so I'll almost certainly have to turn my -12db function on and maybe come down a bit more on the main output volume? It's at -12db as default but I think I may have to do take another few db off.

    Secondly, with the IEM system my understanding is the desk mix feed goes into the receiver box then sends out the mix to all our in-ears packs. We can only control the master volume of the mix, not the actual mix itself (e.g if I want more kick or snare, bass etc).

    Have I got this correct?
    I used to use my Kemper stage as a IEM source. I used to get a mix from the desk from an aux send without my guitar in the mix. I then could blend my guitar into my own monitor mix without it affecting front of house. Not sure how I used to configure the Kemper to achieve this but it worked great. The space parameter on the headphone mix also worked wonders.
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