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"Quiet valve amps sound crap" - do they though??

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sjo89sjo89 Frets: 182
Ok, disclaimer first - I run my amps as clean pedal platforms. Dirt of any kind comes from various pedals so this post is not aimed at people who want any kind of gain from their amps, because in that context, I agree - valve amps do sound crap at low volume.

But (and it may be my philistine ears), I have never thought a clean valve amp running at low volume sounds bad. I hear a lot of folk talking about how they so "thin and weak" when quiet, but they "come alive" when they get past a certain volume. Again, don't know if they're running their amps dead clean like me, but I've never thought any of my valve amps sounded bad, even at very low volume.

And I'm running a wet/dry rig with an AC15 and Fender Pro Reverb (switched down to 12.5W). The volumes on both barely past 9 o'clock.

Am I alone?

Do they sound better louder - well yeah obviously, but I suspect a large amount of that is due to the impact of the sheer volume and resonance itself.

Thoughts? 
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Comments

  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    Yep, you are totally right. 

    There are a few amps that sound a bit shit really quiet, but most sound fine and it's absolute volume that really matters which is true also for solid state etc.

    I think you also have to consider that when some people say "quiet" they mean like "can still hear the strings" quiet which just never works for any amp really other than THR / Roland Cube type things. 

    My DSL 40CR sounds really good at fairly sensible levels.

    Even more controversial opinion, most flat out cranked amps sound shit.
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  • thecolourboxthecolourbox Frets: 9654
    edited October 2021
    I agree quiet valve amps don't inherently sound bad when set quietly - often when I've heard people say this and try to demonstrate it at the same time, they are of an age whereby their hearing isn't that good and quietness is therefore seen as weakness of sound.

    On the flip side my hearing is weird in that I find the louder something is, the less detail I can hear - I inhabit a very quiet world where I speak softly and even the noise of cupboard doors closing can make me jump so it's horses for courses.

    You have two lovely amps with great clean sounds so they will sound good - and you sound happy with them so all power to you
    Please note my communication is not very good, so please be patient with me
    soundcloud.com/thecolourbox-1
    youtube.com/@TheColourboxMusic
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  • sjo89sjo89 Frets: 182
    I agree quiet valve amps don't inherently sound bad when set quietly - often when I've heard people say this and try to demonstrate it at the same time, they are of an age whereby their hearing isn't that good and quietness is therefore seen as weakness of sound.

    On the flip side my hearing is weird in that I find the order something is, the less detail I can hear - I inhabit a very quiet world where I speak softly and even the noise of cupboard doors closing can make me jump so it's horses for courses.

    You have two lovely amps with great clean sounds so they will sound good - and you sound happy with them so all power to you
    I've had many amps, both SS and valve over the years, some low wattage, some high - never thought any of their clean tones sounded noticeably bad, or even close, when quiet. Just because something sounds better when loud, doesn't mean it sounds bad just cos its quiet IMO.
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  • Yes exactly that - it's like when people say "I don't need this item of kit because I'll only use 20% of its capability", but if that 20% does what you want comfortably, then why does it matter?
    Please note my communication is not very good, so please be patient with me
    soundcloud.com/thecolourbox-1
    youtube.com/@TheColourboxMusic
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  • derndern Frets: 357
    Completely agree. I play my P1800 clone from ampmaker at the ~1W setting and it's still difficult to get a good 'driven' sound out of it without volume but with the gain down and clean I can run pedals through and it sounds fine.

    Has to be said though I don't bother because I just run pedals through a JC40 which is super clean, much easier to control at lower volumes and the only difference in sound is due to the speakers but at that volume it's pretty irrelevant.
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  • I've never found this to be true.

    Even with the wattage argument of using lower wattage amps for lower volume. 

    I've personally never found a low wattage valve amp to do what I need as well as a higher wattage one turned down to the same level.

    I do 90% of my playing at levels most would find obscenely low.

    For example my wife can come in my room and talk over it with only a slightly raised voice. 
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  • TTBZTTBZ Frets: 2873
    edited October 2021
    I do think quiet valve amps sound crap but it's not related to the wattage, more the physical thing of the speaker not being pushed hard enough to push any air which usually sounds fizzy and lifeless, and also being able to hear the acoustic sound of the strings over the amp which is even worse. At that point I'd rather use headphones and IRs.
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  • TimmyOTimmyO Frets: 7349
    I don't think that the most common comment is that they sound crap at low volume (notwithstanding the comment above) but that there are lots of other ways to sound like a valve amp at low volume that are potentially cheaper or more flexible or more reliable  if that's the only way they will be used. 

    If they will.also be used at the kinds of volumes they were designed or expected to be operated at then that's different - the physical response is harder to replicate when used like that. 
    Red ones are better. 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71955
    No, they don't - some do, but well-designed ones sound fine down to a whisper. Speakers don't need to be 'pushed' either - or at least most types don't. There are a few with heavily-doped cones (eg the V30) which do need a bit more power to avoid sounding stiff and flat, but they're in the minority and even then, if you run them with a big amp with plenty of bottom-end, even at a very low volume, they sound fine.

    My Mesa Trem-o-verbs - 100W, with two V30s - sounded good at right down to guitar-string volume. Of course they sounded even better turned up a bit, but still nowhere near crap at 'bedroom' volume (if I could have got them up the stairs!). I never turned them up full usually - I did sometimes use attenuation, but even then there was a point beyond where they didn't sound as good as a bit quieter.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • De_BatzDe_Batz Frets: 117
    Both of my big amps - a Cornford and a Mesa Heartbreaker - do not do their thing at low volume at all. As in, they sound - and I apologise for my choice of word here - gash. Both of them have a grainy, spitty quality to the drive that is deeply unattractive. Get them working a bit (well up into antisocial-in-a-semi-detached-house levels) and this smoothes out. 

    My little Fender Mustang I is actually more satisfying to play at even fairly loud house (75-80dB a few feet away) volumes. Through a big cab, even more so. 
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    I haven't heard 'low volume amps sound crap'.

    I'll talk about how it relates to recording.
    Most people here haven't tracked low volume amps next to high volume amps under ideal conditions and compared once level matched.
    I have, as have a few others here.

    Tracking louder means you get more power amp and more speaker.
    Lower volume is mostly preamp.
    I prefer tracking louder, there is a fullness to the sound that you can't simply EQ into the track.
    You also get more feedback which is always awesome.

    Then there is the aesthetic difference between a 100w Marshall wound up vs something like a Champ or a Princeton.
    The blown out sound of a smaller amp is very characterful but it doesn't suit all genres.
    It is a bit of a rabbit hole to go down though and when I practice it is mostly a Princeton style amp with pedals for gain.


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  • rze99rze99 Frets: 2260
    I like all my old valve amps to run at the point of breakup, then I go cleaner with volume control and with some boost, dirtier.

    With attenuators I can do this to record and rehearse and gig at any volume I like and no they don't sound crap. you cant replace the physics of a really loud amp in the room with the guitar there close to it and you never will.
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  • sjo89sjo89 Frets: 182
    De_Batz said:
    Both of my big amps - a Cornford and a Mesa Heartbreaker - do not do their thing at low volume at all. As in, they sound - and I apologise for my choice of word here - gash. Both of them have a grainy, spitty quality to the drive that is deeply unattractive. Get them working a bit (well up into antisocial-in-a-semi-detached-house levels) and this smoothes out. 

    My little Fender Mustang I is actually more satisfying to play at even fairly loud house (75-80dB a few feet away) volumes. Through a big cab, even more so. 
    Yes but as I specified - I was referring to clean only. I agree that gain requires volume to sound good. But my point was, they sound good at low volumes when clean - and if you use pedals like me, they sound fine too. I have a Boss Nextone which is SS and can go as low as 0.5W and TBH, my 50W Pro Reverb running on 1.5 on the volume sounds just as lovely to me at the same volume.
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  • sjo89sjo89 Frets: 182
    octatonic said:
    I haven't heard 'low volume amps sound crap'.

    You clearly dont watch Youtube as much as me then  =)
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  • SassafrasSassafras Frets: 30273
    I like a bit of feedback so generally I prefer LOUD!
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  • TimmyOTimmyO Frets: 7349
    Sassafras said:
    I like a bit of feedback so generally I prefer LOUD!
    I was going to give you some feedback on your post but I couldn't work out how to make it funny 
    Red ones are better. 
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  • octatonic said:


    Tracking louder means you get more power amp and more speaker.
    Lower volume is mostly preamp.
    I prefer tracking louder, there is a fullness to the sound that you can't simply EQ into the track.
    You also get more feedback which is always awesome.



    What volume level would you say the threshold is? I've really struggled to get decent results mic'ing an amp in my home studio and I believe volume is likely the main issue which is why for me using a kemper or modelling gets me better results.



    ဈǝᴉʇsɐoʇǝsǝǝɥɔဪቌ
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  • sjo89sjo89 Frets: 182
    octatonic said:


    Tracking louder means you get more power amp and more speaker.
    Lower volume is mostly preamp.
    I prefer tracking louder, there is a fullness to the sound that you can't simply EQ into the track.
    You also get more feedback which is always awesome.



    What volume level would you say the threshold is? I've really struggled to get decent results mic'ing an amp in my home studio and I believe volume is likely the main issue which is why for me using a kemper or modelling gets me better results.



    I think for home recording why wouldnt you use a modeller? It's been proven they sound as good as a real miced amp a million times over and its obviously way easier. 
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10356
    There is a point where the volume is so low it's probably not worth bothering with an amp. Like when you can still hear the guitar strings acoustically as well as the sound of the amp. Lot of Youtube bedroom players have that sound :) 

    I keep my amps under the stairs in a large cupboard. There's a mic in there I can put on any of the 3 amps and I monitor that through my DAW. It occurred to me that anyone who wanted a similar setup who didn't have a cupboard could just build a large box and put it in the garden. Maybe even dig a large hole for the box. install a couple of cabs and some mics and cover it back over. I might do that myself 
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • sjo89sjo89 Frets: 182
    Danny1969 said:
    There is a point where the volume is so low it's probably not worth bothering with an amp. Like when you can still hear the guitar strings acoustically as well as the sound of the amp. Lot of Youtube bedroom players have that sound :) 

    I keep my amps under the stairs in a large cupboard. There's a mic in there I can put on any of the 3 amps and I monitor that through my DAW. It occurred to me that anyone who wanted a similar setup who didn't have a cupboard could just build a large box and put it in the garden. Maybe even dig a large hole for the box. install a couple of cabs and some mics and cover it back over. I might do that myself 
    .....or save yourself the trouble and just buy yourself a modeller which sounds the same as a miced amp...
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