Mic suggestions please

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uncledickuncledick Frets: 403
This has probably been asked before but nothing quite right came up on a search.  We're a 7 piece band with two guitars, drums, bass and 3 singers out front (2 girls, 1 bloke).  The vocals and bass all go through a Behringer X-Air and then into two DXR10s out front.  I also mic my Cornell just to keep stage volumes down but nothing drastic.  I do have a DXS12 sub which comes out for bigger venues.

Our consistent problem is that we play in small venues (50-100 people) with very little room.  Last night, I had to turn 90deg. and stick my guitar neck between two of the singers, whilst our bass man ended up with a long lead and blocked the fire escape.  I know you'll probably just tell me that a 3 -piece is more than ample but, for various reasons, that ain't going to happen.

The main issue we regularly have is feedback from the FOH speakers when we try to get anywhere near loud.  We have some old Wharfdale monitors which do the job (just) but I can't get the DXRs to kick much volume out until I get feedback - typically at around 800Hz and between 2.5-3 kHz.  The singers are using 2 SM58s and a 57 with a pop shield.  My gut feeling is that, because the FOH speakers are literally 2 feet forward from the singers, we need very directional mics which can blank out all the unwanted bits.  

I've looked at plenty of Youtube videos on the Behringer site as well as a good look at Mark Baker's excellent book but improvements have been minimal.  I've cut the reverb basically to zero which, again, has helped - but not fixed it.  At the moment , the speakers are on stands which put the bottom of the cab at about shoulder height.  Is it worth moving them down?  We rarely have any opportunity to go up.

If anyone has any suggestions for mics - or any other helpful hints - they would be very welcome.  

TIA,
Dick


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Comments

  • MusicwolfMusicwolf Frets: 3627

    Caveat.  I don’t class myself as a Live Sound Engineer but I do the ‘mixing from the stage’ for my bands.  I can’t give you any magic fixes but here are my thoughts / tips.  I’m also using an XR-18 and DXR’s (12’s in my case).  One of my bands is a 5 piece with female lead vocals and myself on backing vox.

    Mic wise we have SM58 and I’m using a Sennheiser e845 – I’ve never felt the need for anything more directional.  What sort of gain settings do you have?   Three vocalists suggests lead + 2 backing singers?  Are the mics all on stands and are the backing singers stepping away from their mics when not singing?

    Cut all the frequencies from the mic that you don’t need for vocals, cut even more from the monitors (you need to be able to hear yourself to pitch, you don’t need HiFi) and only put through what you absolutely need to hear in terms of other instruments.  I’ve moved to in ears, as has the lead singer in one of my bands, which has really helped.

    The 5 piece band had its first gig a week or so ago.   For the last practice we moved from our regular practice room to the biggest rehearsal room that we could find so that we could set up as per on stage.  It also allowed us to do a lengthy sound check and then store the settings on the XR-18.  We still sound checked at the venue but we were able to do this very quickly.  The sound was great both on stage and FOH but it was a good sounding stage with lots of space which I think made a huge difference.  I’m very familiar with the types of set up that you describe and they do make life very difficult.


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  • Sounds familiar  

    Real drums to compete with or eKit?  It is hard to keep up with real drums in a small space with low ceiling.  We always go electronic if a squeeze.  Takes the pressure off needing high volume.

    We have a digital desk with auto feedback suppression and parametric/notch eq and room asjustment. Are you dropping the EQ at the feedback frequencies or is it adjusting for venue?  I assume Behringer has similar.

    Things got better when more of us moved to IEMs as monitors just contributed to more stage volume/feedback.
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    There's just so many variables. The biggest one is what's called the PFL level coming from the singers. If they have loud singing voices then everything is so much easier as it creates a natural high wanted signal to spill ratio. If they are great singers in terms of pitch and phrasing but the PFL is low then it's always a struggle in small areas. If you think about it a vocal mic 2 foot in front of a drum kit is a drum mic really, and unless the singer can belt a fair old level in the the mic turning up the vocal will actually just be turning up the drums. 
    Ironically the smaller the gig you more you mic the drums :)

    Mic's with a tighter pattern like the Senn 945 have a better off axis rejection but require the singer to be right on the mic all the time, otherwise the signal level will drift a fair bit. So I'm not sure it will help a lot. 

    All you can do is keep the drums low as possible and the backline. Don't use wedges, use IEM's. Get the FOH speakers far enough forward to be in the vocal mics dead zone 

    High pass everything, even though those little speakers can't produce low frequencies they still absorb them and that creates stresss and heat. Try hi passing the vocals at 130Hz for the girls and a little lower for the male. Cut some low mid between 250 and 550Hz. Then low pass at 11K and see what you have. 
    For effects try delay lowish in the mix rather than verb and switch it off between songs with a footswitch. Be careful with compression, try a 3:1 but with a high threshold so it's doing nothing until there's a high level of vocal. 

    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8591
    The above is all good advice. In terms of cost and complexity IEMs are ideal, but take money to get there, and need practice to use effectively. I’d start by EQing the monitors. The Wharfdales won’t be giving you a particularly good sound anyway. Use the X-Air EQ to high and low pass, and also knock out the frequency ranges which feedback. 

    I’d try to get the speakers higher. If a pub ceiling allows then I like to have the bottom of the speaker just above head height, but not within a foot of the ceiling. That way the sound isn’t blocked by the front row of the audience, and carries better without being too loud.

    Make sure that your singers are holding their mics properly, and not getting their hands too close to the mesh. 

    For mics I’m always more concerned about the mic’s response suiting the singers voice. Personally I did swap my Sennheiser 845 for a 945, but I don’t sing. Just clapping and announcements, so sound quality was less important than moving from cardioid to hypercardiod. When it come to spending money I’d look at IEMs, starting with the singers so that they no longer need monitors pointing at their ears, and hence microphones. 
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 2316
    edited October 2021
    We run the monitors and FOH speakers through a  couple of 15 band EQ units.

    Download a spectrum analyser app on your phone, and then take a bit of time before you start to cut the frequencies  that are feeding back.

    Generally for us the main singer's mic is the culprit so I turn that up loud enough to get some feedback and hold the phone near one of the speakers..  and then cut the frequencies  (and the one's next to it a little bit) that  shows spiking on the app for the FOH.  Then do the same for the monitors.

    you might get a few  honks from the punters as in pubs there are people who are there when you're setting up.. but it only should take a couple of minutes to do and does make a difference.

    There is a balance though so be conservative with cutting the frequency bands.

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  • maltingsaudiomaltingsaudio Frets: 3098
    edited October 2021
    You’ve identified the frequencies giving the problems, now try putting a very tight v notch in the mics eq and sweeping it to cut the feedback. You do this on the eq section, first turn the knob mark q to make a V appear at the selected frequency, then turn the gain down to -10 and you will see a v. Then using the frequency knob sweep the range to cut the frequency which is feeding back. This inevitably highlights another frequency which will then start feeding but the x air has enough bands on its peq to make two or 3 cuts. You can also do this on the eq of the monitor feeds as well

    To be honest I wouldn’t be looking at changing mics the SM58 unless it’s got a fault, is perfectly good enough for what you describe. It’s getting to grips with the EQ which is going to sort your problems. And also turn off any compressor s you have on the vocals to begin with , a badly set compressor is a major source of feedback.
    www.maltingsaudio.co.uk
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    uncledick said:

    The singers are using 2 SM58s and a 57 with a pop shield.
    The very first thing I would try is replacing the 57 with another 58. I did this with the 3-vocal band I was in - I was using a 57 for the lead singer who had a very pure, clear voice in the belief that that the greater top-end response would suit her more, but it just caused trouble and made it harder to EQ out the feedback. Swapped her to a 58 as well and most of the problems went away, and I could get another 2 or 3dB with no trouble.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 2316
    edited October 2021
    As for mic's  a touring sound engineer I know (he does sound at some of the really big festivals and tours with  household name bands) has strongly recommended this: sE Electronics V7

    His words on it were that him and his colleagues were astonished by how good it was when a  singer turned up with Also one of his colleagues does beta testing for mics, and had said it had stood up extremely well when A/B'd with very expensive mics..

    One of the bands I'm in, the singer bought one and there was  a big difference in how she sounded with this than before (SM58, E945's etc). It just sounded a lot more fuller and rounder sound wise. 

    I've ordered one for myself although I sing like a hoover..
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    I would suggest using the Behringer X-Air's ages on all of the mics, so when they are not being used they get shut-off.  Pointless leaving mic channels open if you don't need them
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  • uncledickuncledick Frets: 403
    Thanks all, a lot of useful tips and experience shared.  I hadn't thought to knock the compressors off but totally see why it's not gonna help.  At our 'regular' venue I can touch the ceiling with my hand so can't move the speakers up.  90% of our songs will have one lead singer with the other two doing backing so I can't really mute anyone.  Our 'best' singer uses the 57 and she has a fairly deep tone which imho doesn't help at all.
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  • MusicwolfMusicwolf Frets: 3627
    uncledick said:
     90% of our songs will have one lead singer with the other two doing backing so I can't really mute anyone.
    There is a gate available on each channel of the XR-18.  If you can get it set right, and it’s worth spending some time on this, you should be able to cut most of the spill when the backing singers aren’t singing.  Experiment with threshold and release values so that the gate opens only when they sing (they should be singing close up to the mic on a tight stage) but a long enough release to not cut off the tails.

    If there are long periods within the song where they don’t sing then you could get a couple of mic mute pedals (Orchid Electronics do an excellent one) so that the singers can mute and unmute their own mics.
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  • uncledickuncledick Frets: 403
    Musicwolf said:
    uncledick said:
     90% of our songs will have one lead singer with the other two doing backing so I can't really mute anyone.

    If there are long periods within the song where they don’t sing then you could get a couple of mic mute pedals (Orchid Electronics do an excellent one) so that the singers can mute and unmute their own mics.
    I'll have a look.  They make some nice gear.
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  • MusicwolfMusicwolf Frets: 3627
    uncledick said:
    Musicwolf said:
    uncledick said:
     90% of our songs will have one lead singer with the other two doing backing so I can't really mute anyone.

    If there are long periods within the song where they don’t sing then you could get a couple of mic mute pedals (Orchid Electronics do an excellent one) so that the singers can mute and unmute their own mics.
    I'll have a look.  They make some nice gear.
    Note of caution - you are reliant on the singer to remember to unmute their mic at the correct time.  I have the Orchid Electronics mic mute



    If you have phantom power on then it illuminates a nice big red LED to tell you that it's muted - but I still forget from time to time.

    I'm not sure how you train backing singers?  In the past I've had some success in training bass players but unfortunately my methods were deemed cruel by the animal rights groups.
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