My improv is stuck in a rut pt 362

axisus

OK, so my improv is stuck in a rut. 

Here's the thing, I'm just an average guitar player sat at home noodling in the evenings. Sometimes it feels 'inspired' (within the confines of my level), and for quite a few days it all sounds good. but other times I virtually throw my guitar away in disgust after a few minutes. 

I was watching this short video by Roberto Restuccia, and he seems to get waaaay more interesting stuff off of a simple blues track that I would. I need to find a way to unlock a bit more interest and diversity from my playing.

Here's the thing though - I'm crap at theory and not good at learning new stuff. For this reason I'm not looking to get into modes, analyse the chords and modify my playing accordingly etc. I'm wondering how I can get more interesting stuff from the scale that I already use. What is that scale? er ... dunno, I'm crap at theory!

It's probably something, I just modified the blues scale a bit over the years. If i'm playing in G minor, I use the notes

G  A  Bb  C  C# D  Eb  F

I then just noodle around in the one key once I have figured the best one for the current backing track. I figure that is plenty of notes to find a more creative approach!

So really I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel over my playing, just get a more interesting varied note choice going. I seem to play the same old stuff all the time, but it just sounds a bit different due to the backing tracks being different.

Any thoughts/ideas?

Anyway, this was the video that got me thinking I need to up my game for my own personal sanity. I'm not saying it's 'amazing' but it sure made me think that I need to do better.:

tanihhiavlt

One simple rule to better everything - when you feel like crap don't call yourself average or tell yourself you're crap at stuff. Find something you feel good at even if it's fretting one note. Practice that. Negative thinking is not a place to learn anything from. 

Also arpeggios, you play all the chord tones and chord tones are the bits of information that tell your audience you know what you're doing. one octave triads and fourth arpeggios. Less information than a pentatonic but a perfect building block, the start of words.

G minor - GBbD .. BbDF ... DFA ... these can sound like you're playin "extensions" of the chord - doesn't matter what that is but what it sounds like.

Next ...

Does it sound awful when you play E instead of Eb? - That's using modes. It sounds less heavy to me.

but essentially if you are growing as a person these three feelings are guaranteed, so get used to them:

1) "F***, did I really used to think that?!" If you're not wincing with embarrassment at memories of what you did 6 months ago you're not growing.

2) "I feel like such an idiot because I don't get..." - the important thing is you're there and feeling crap, a lot of learning feels like that, it's not all excitement.

3) "This is really boring, is it even working" - mid exercise everyone gets this... see it through to the end and if you need a distraction (that's all the voice of doubt ever was) think about how you'd create an experiment to test if it's making a difference.

Also yer man in the video sounds like he's been chugging UberJam by John Scofield for several weeks lovely sense of timing and note selection  

octatonic

All the things I said last time.

kelpbeds

axisus said:

OK, so my improv is stuck in a rut. 

Here's the thing, I'm just an average guitar player sat at home noodling in the evenings. Sometimes it feels 'inspired' (within the confines of my level), and for quite a few days it all sounds good. but other times I virtually throw my guitar away in disgust after a few minutes. 

I was watching this short video by Roberto Restuccia, and he seems to get waaaay more interesting stuff off of a simple blues track that I would. I need to find a way to unlock a bit more interest and diversity from my playing.

Here's the thing though - I'm crap at theory and not good at learning new stuff. For this reason I'm not looking to get into modes, analyse the chords and modify my playing accordingly etc. I'm wondering how I can get more interesting stuff from the scale that I already use. What is that scale? er ... dunno, I'm crap at theory!

It's probably something, I just modified the blues scale a bit over the years. If i'm playing in G minor, I use the notes

G  A  Bb  C  C# D  Eb  F

I then just noodle around in the one key once I have figured the best one for the current backing track. I figure that is plenty of notes to find a more creative approach!

So really I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel over my playing, just get a more interesting varied note choice going. I seem to play the same old stuff all the time, but it just sounds a bit different due to the backing tracks being different.

Any thoughts/ideas?

Anyway, this was the video that got me thinking I need to up my game for my own personal sanity. I'm not saying it's 'amazing' but it sure made me think that I need to do better.:

Re your 'Blues Scale' What you are playing there is Root, 2, b3, 4,b5,5,b6,b7. This is mostly great but I probably wouldn't play the b6 (the Eb note) If you play it without the Eb you are basically doing a Blues Scale with an added 2nd degree. That will work really well. 
As for the vid you posted (which is cool) he is playing some pretty 'outside' lines there. A great place to play outside lines in a Blues is on bar 4 (just before it moves to the IV chord) as the chord is about to move. You can also play outside lines over the V chord on bar 9. You could try and do this by ear by just picking some notes that aren't in your normal scale but from a theoretical point of view you could use the Altered scale. You could play that 

You can also mix major and minor pentatonics across a major Blues which sounds very cool. I did a vid about it here. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90QbuhZabho&t=245s
There are lots of other vids on my channel which will help you massively if you want to just get out of noodling in minor pentatonic. In fact my whole channel is about just that!
Hope that helps!

axisus

octatonic said:

All the things I said last time.

Ho ho! I have to admit that I put a different emphasis on the post this time, but I shall go back and take a look at your last words of wisdom.

axisus

kelpbeds said:

Re your 'Blues Scale' What you are playing there is Root, 2, b3, 4,b5,5,b6,b7. This is mostly great but I probably wouldn't play the b6 (the Eb note) If you play it without the Eb you are basically doing a Blues Scale with an added 2nd degree. That will work really well. 
As for the vid you posted (which is cool) he is playing some pretty 'outside' lines there. A great place to play outside lines in a Blues is on bar 4 (just before it moves to the IV chord) as the chord is about to move. You can also play outside lines over the V chord on bar 9. You could try and do this by ear by just picking some notes that aren't in your normal scale but from a theoretical point of view you could use the Altered scale. You could play that 

You can also mix major and minor pentatonics across a major Blues which sounds very cool. I did a vid about it here. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90QbuhZabho&t=245s
There are lots of other vids on my channel which will help you massively if you want to just get out of noodling in minor pentatonic. In fact my whole channel is about just that!
Hope that helps!

Thanks, I'll check out your videos at the weekend! The Eb may seem weird to you but I do use it a lot.

menamestom

Arpeggios are really good, just three/four note patterns up the neck, get them under your fingers for all the common chords if you havn't already, then you can throw them in among scales for a more chordal approach. Possibly not straight blues but something in that ballpark, even 2 chords it's nice to focus on some of the chord tones rather than just going up and down a a scale.

Do you play much rhythm btw?  Sometimes it's nice to just comp along with things, that's what we as musicians would generally spend most time doing and it's the song / groove that counts the most.  Coming from the rhythm angle sets the mood for the solo rather than just sitting over the top.  Rhythm Revolution by Robben Ford is something worth looking at. 

axisus

menamestom said:

Do you play much rhythm btw?  Sometimes it's nice to just comp along with things, that's what we as musicians would generally spend most time doing and it's the song / groove that counts the most.  Coming from the rhythm angle sets the mood for the solo rather than just sitting over the top.  Rhythm Revolution by Robben Ford is something worth looking at. 

Honesty - No. I mostly stick backing tracks on and have no real idea what the chords are!

CaseOfAce

In a nutshell - first learn the minor pentatonic all over the neck. That's the starting point - (and you never stop learning all the tricks, riffs, licks, positions etc)

You say you don't want to learn theory etc? Why not? Sure you can muddle thru it by learning the shapes and connecting them (indeed some famous players can't play a scale and it's never held them back!) but I've found it incredibly useful.

So I know that in that vid it's a 3 chords blues in C# using dominant 7th (ish) chords - he's essentially playing a position 1 C# minor blues scale but then adding scale notes like the major 3rd , 6th , b7th etc..(so your into your major pentatonic and  mixolydian mode) and then emphasising the changes by playing say the 3rd of the IV and V chords before doing the same things with those chords etc... add to that all the bending, vibrato, outside notes (!). 
Not surprising if as a poster above said he's doing John Scofield - a jazzer who studied at Berkeley and knows his theory inside out.
At the end of the day though you just got to put the time and effort in and play, jam, watch other players. It taken me years and there's still so much I'm learning.
Don't give up - keep at it - the rewards are immense.

viz

He’s doing 3 things that you’re not doing with your scale:

1) he’s using the major and minor 3rd. Often sliding up from minor to major. So in your G example, instead of just Bb, he’s doing Bb -> B

2) He’s using a major 6th not a minor 6th. Your Eb makes it sound very tragic, very minor. Very Aeolian. He’s lightening the mood with a major 6th, an E, instead. (it’s Dorian, but don’t worry about that.)

3) On the turnaround in the bar or half-bar before returning to the beginning of the cycle, he’s changing the palette completely and playing notes using the “super locrian over the Dominant” concept. So he’s imagining a dominant chord, which would be D7, and he’s playing from the notes D Eb F Gb Ab Bb C and D. This is the “altered scale”. And if you just stay in your G box, it’s simply Ab Bb C D Eb F and Gb. (No G!) A very easy way of getting some of those notes is, while you’re playing in your G blues box, when it’s time for the turnaround, play your normal notes on the B string where you’re already playing frets 3, 5 and 6 (well, you’re playing 3,4 and 6, but assuming your doing point (2) above), and then just slip your hand upwards by one fret on the B string and play frets 4, 6 and 7. And fret 5 and 7 on the G string too. This will give you at least half of the altered scale. Then when the cycle starts again you can slip your hand back down to the G spot

EricTheWeary

axisus said:

menamestom said:

Do you play much rhythm btw?  Sometimes it's nice to just comp along with things, that's what we as musicians would generally spend most time doing and it's the song / groove that counts the most.  Coming from the rhythm angle sets the mood for the solo rather than just sitting over the top.  Rhythm Revolution by Robben Ford is something worth looking at. 

Honesty - No. I mostly stick backing tracks on and have no real idea what the chords are!

i have been playing a little bit really for the first time in ages. I was having a noodle over some backing tracks and when I was trying to make sure I was hitting target notes over the chord changes my playing got very slow and simple but also just more musical.
 If you were. let's say Adele, improvising a melody over chords it would be with a much more restricted palette of notes than you have on a guitar. So she would be singing roots, thirds, fifths, octave and almost anything else would a deliberate outside choice from which to resolve back to something within the basic notes of that chord. So, if you take that approach on guitar it just becomes more vocal and then bends, vibrato, etc, to add to that sense of something natural.  
Even using a single scale over changes where I know the scale fits if I know which notes correspond to the underlying chords then I can target ( or not) those notes. 
Certainly not a fast track to speedy playing but working out the notes in the chords and how to find them is more melodic/easy on the ear.

axisus

Thanks people for the comments, stuff to think about.

axisus

viz said:

He’s doing 3 things that you’re not doing with your scale:

1) he’s using the major and minor 3rd. Often sliding up from minor to major. So in your G example, instead of just Bb, he’s doing Bb -> B

2) He’s using a major 6th not a minor 6th. Your Eb makes it sound very tragic, very minor. Very Aeolian. He’s lightening the mood with a major 6th, an E, instead. (it’s Dorian, but don’t worry about that.)

3) On the turnaround in the bar or half-bar before returning to the beginning of the cycle, he’s changing the palette completely and playing notes using the “super locrian over the Dominant” concept. So he’s imagining a dominant chord, which would be D7, and he’s playing from the notes D Eb F Gb Ab Bb C and D. This is the “altered scale”. And if you just stay in your G box, it’s simply Ab Bb C D Eb F and Gb. (No G!) A very easy way of getting some of those notes is, while you’re playing in your G blues box, when it’s time for the turnaround, play your normal notes on the B string where you’re already playing frets 3, 5 and 6 (well, you’re playing 3,4 and 6, but assuming your doing point (2) above), and then just slip your hand upwards by one fret on the B string and play frets 4, 6 and 7. And fret 5 and 7 on the G string too. This will give you at least half of the altered scale. Then when the cycle starts again you can slip your hand back down to the G spot

You know, I find it sooooooo hard when people get into the technical language (as some have here), it suddenly feels like I'm dyslexic! It all just turns to gibberish before my eyes. I honestly feel that my brain can't compute it and shuts down. However, I kind of feel that I get something of your post. OK I (embarrassed to admit it) don't know many notes on the fretboard, but I think with a bit of application I can work out what you are saying here. Ta!

Rocker

Stuck record:  you need to play music with a real musician in the room.  IMHO playing solo, even to a backing track, you lose the connection with the other musician(s), the connection that makes notes, chords etc into music.

It hardly matters what is played, you are into Blues and if your companion wants to play and sing Irish ballads, let him play and sing his stuff and see what notes or licks you know that fit the song.  In this way you are adding something to his song and developing a knowledge of what works and what doesn't work.  Don't expect miracles, do learn the chords for the usual guitar friendly keys, do learn to listen to his contribution.  

It doesn't matter if you get it wrong.  You won't be shot at dawn.  You may find that most of what you know does not fit the situation.  As someone once said, if the note doesn't fit - bend it till it does.

viz

Or bend your brain till it does. 

CaseOfAce

axisus said:

menamestom said:

Do you play much rhythm btw?  Sometimes it's nice to just comp along with things, that's what we as musicians would generally spend most time doing and it's the song / groove that counts the most.  Coming from the rhythm angle sets the mood for the solo rather than just sitting over the top.  Rhythm Revolution by Robben Ford is something worth looking at. 

Honesty - No. I mostly stick backing tracks on and have no real idea what the chords are!

... at which point I'm assuming modes, outside playing and super locrians is not going to be of much use at this point!

I have no idea of your skill level - but it sounds like you need to first work on playing basic chords along with the backing track. Only then would I even consider soloing. At which point I'd say find out the key of the song from the chords and select the minor pentatonic for that key.

It sounds like you either need a) some lessons from a guitar teacher or b) a subscription to Guitar Techniques magazine or c) a chat with a fellow guitar player to show you the way forward!
Best of luck!

EricTheWeary

viz said:

Or bend your brain till it does. 

It would be a bit off topic to introduce it here but quite a nice little discussion about playing outside during an interview with Greg Koch on...oh sod it here it is...that conversation from about 9:20




actually there's also a bit about 'conversational blues' from around 14:00 which is more on topic. I always say the the essential element of blues playing is call and response - a musical conversation - it's the basic DNA of what makes a blues. So playing over backing tracks can become the musical equivalent of someone shouting at you for five minutes. That video probably isn't the greatest example but essentially breaking it into phrases. Almost the opposite of rock or jazz where you tend to search for more flowing lines ( I'm not sure how much the OP wants to be the next BB King but that video he posted says BLUES). 

Sorry, probably all a bit of a digression.        

 

kelpbeds

axisus said:

viz said:

He’s doing 3 things that you’re not doing with your scale:

1) he’s using the major and minor 3rd. Often sliding up from minor to major. So in your G example, instead of just Bb, he’s doing Bb -> B

2) He’s using a major 6th not a minor 6th. Your Eb makes it sound very tragic, very minor. Very Aeolian. He’s lightening the mood with a major 6th, an E, instead. (it’s Dorian, but don’t worry about that.)

3) On the turnaround in the bar or half-bar before returning to the beginning of the cycle, he’s changing the palette completely and playing notes using the “super locrian over the Dominant” concept. So he’s imagining a dominant chord, which would be D7, and he’s playing from the notes D Eb F Gb Ab Bb C and D. This is the “altered scale”. And if you just stay in your G box, it’s simply Ab Bb C D Eb F and Gb. (No G!) A very easy way of getting some of those notes is, while you’re playing in your G blues box, when it’s time for the turnaround, play your normal notes on the B string where you’re already playing frets 3, 5 and 6 (well, you’re playing 3,4 and 6, but assuming your doing point (2) above), and then just slip your hand upwards by one fret on the B string and play frets 4, 6 and 7. And fret 5 and 7 on the G string too. This will give you at least half of the altered scale. Then when the cycle starts again you can slip your hand back down to the G spot

You know, I find it sooooooo hard when people get into the technical language (as some have here), it suddenly feels like I'm dyslexic! It all just turns to gibberish before my eyes. I honestly feel that my brain can't compute it and shuts down. However, I kind of feel that I get something of your post. OK I (embarrassed to admit it) don't know many notes on the fretboard, but I think with a bit of application I can work out what you are saying here. Ta!

I get that, students of mine often say the same thing. One way you could look at it is this. When he is playing outside sounding stuff (which as Viz mentions is from the Altered scale) you just play notes outside of the scale you would normally use. This will be a bit hit and miss and isn't theoretically totally sound but it can work well if you use your ears. So the place to do this would be in either bar 4 or over the V chord in bar 9. Just try it and see and when you play these outside notes resolve them back to the root note on the next bar on beat 1. 

Roland

axisus said:

... I mostly stick backing tracks on and have no real idea what the chords are!

It’s difficult to solo over something if you don’t know what you’re soloing over. Your playing needs to reference the rhythm, melody and harmony of the backing track. 

Have a look at Paul Stafford Cook analysing the thinking behind a solo. He’s relating everything to the underlying chord, even when he’s not playing notes from that chord.

https://youtu.be/2u3qIpdg_QI

Kilgore

Have you had a look at StichMethod on YouTube?

I have very limited theory knowledge but I find that Stich takes theoretical ideas and distills them down to easy to follow practical tutorials that you apply to your playing.

Lots of stuff on arpeggios, chord tones, triads, mixing major/minor etc, etc. 

axisus

Once again, thanks all, lots of stuff to look into!