Advice on loose nut please

Evan

I’ve just got an Earvana nut for my Telecaster from Feline guitars, but my nut slot is a bit too wide and there is a bit of a gap (shown in the picture) between the nut and the side of the slot nearest the fretboard. 

This is also causing some lateral movement of the nut when under string tension, so it’ll have to be glued, but what I’m wondering is what would be a good material to shim that gap with. Will a bit of paper or card do, or does it need to be something harder, like plastic?

Any suggestions would be much appreciated. 

Thanks

https://i.imgur.com/otSEsqT.jpg

Richardrichard

Go to a professional. How do you know it's currently in the right place to have the correct effect on intonation? 

Evan

Richardrichard said:

Go to a professional. How do you know it's currently in the right place to have the correct effect on intonation? 

If I have to, I will go to a luthier, I’m just hoping someone can suggest a temporary measure to tide me over.

BillDL

Ironically the compensated nut has turned out to be as much of, or more of, a problem than the original nut that needed some compensation for intonation.  Logically the breakover point (the leading edge where the string "takes off" from) should have been right at the front side of the slot i.e. the neck side rather than the headstock side of the slot.  Given that you were having intonation problems that prompted the installation of a compensated nut, it is possible that the slots in the old nut were cut (or had worn) badly whereby the breakover point for one or more of the strings was further back into the middle of the nut.  Without knowing exactly which strings needed compensated on the old nut as it was, you now have the additional problem of knowing exactly where the breakover points on the compensated nut should be.  I'm pretty sure that you could find a reasonably accurate position for the nut through meticulous measurement and comparison with the problematic areas of the old nut, but "reasonably accurate" defeats the whole point of compensating at the nut end.

My suggestion would also be to take it to a repair tech/luthier.  If you are determined to do this yourself, what I would suggest is stringing up the guitar with your choice of string gauge and seeing whether the nut is going to sit upright in the slot while you move it back and forward in the slot to find the best intonation.  If it won't sit upright, then you can temporarily pack the gap on one or both sides while trying to ascertain the best position.  You could sand down some bits of wood or even find different thicknesses of plastic to make shims.  Once you find the exact position you would then have to mark it very accurately on either side of the nut.

To make a permanent shim you would be best trying to find a scrap of rosewood, dark mahohany (could be stained on the end grain to match rosewood), or some other hardwood.  You would have to sand it down to thickness and height very accurately so it is absolutely flat on all sides.  You should never glue a nut in such a way that tapping it back out in later years is going to rip out chunks of wood.  Normally just a dab of glue in the slot at either side of the truss rod is sufficient to stop it sliding sideways and the string tension holds it down in place anyway.  Assuming that you are going to have a gap behind and in front of the new nut to be filled, I would strongly suggest that you use hardwood to match the fingerboard.  You could glue a shim up against the end of the neck slot with two very small dabs of ordinary wood glue and the only parts that would show would be the end grain.  If you had to shim at the headstock end, you will have more of the shim showing, so it would be best to stain and colour match it.  You would be aiming to end up with a tight slot for the new nut to press into without even really needing glue to hold it, so sanding down the shims accurately is essential but very fiddly.

I would guess that an experienced luthier would probably cut a piece of rosewood to fill the old slot completely and disguise the chip-out next to the nut slot in the process.  It would be a much more accurate and permanent fix for the luthier to then cut a new slot in the correct position for the new nut to fit tightly in.  That is what I would be inclined to do rather than using thin shims.

Evan

BillDL said:

Ironically the compensated nut has turned out to be as much of, or more of, a problem than the original nut that needed some compensation for intonation.  Logically the breakover point (the leading edge where the string "takes off" from) should have been right at the front side of the slot i.e. the neck side rather than the headstock side of the slot.  Given that you were having intonation problems that prompted the installation of a compensated nut, it is possible that the slots in the old nut were cut (or had worn) badly whereby the breakover point for one or more of the strings was further back into the middle of the nut.  Without knowing exactly which strings needed compensated on the old nut as it was, you now have the additional problem of knowing exactly where the breakover points on the compensated nut should be.  I'm pretty sure that you could find a reasonably accurate position for the nut through meticulous measurement and comparison with the problematic areas of the old nut, but "reasonably accurate" defeats the whole point of compensating at the nut end.

My suggestion would also be to take it to a repair tech/luthier.  If you are determined to do this yourself, what I would suggest is stringing up the guitar with your choice of string gauge and seeing whether the nut is going to sit upright in the slot while you move it back and forward in the slot to find the best intonation.  If it won't sit upright, then you can temporarily pack the gap on one or both sides while trying to ascertain the best position.  You could sand down some bits of wood or even find different thicknesses of plastic to make shims.  Once you find the exact position you would then have to mark it very accurately on either side of the nut.

To make a permanent shim you would be best trying to find a scrap of rosewood, dark mahohany (could be stained on the end grain to match rosewood), or some other hardwood.  You would have to sand it down to thickness and height very accurately so it is absolutely flat on all sides.  You should never glue a nut in such a way that tapping it back out in later years is going to rip out chunks of wood.  Normally just a dab of glue in the slot at either side of the truss rod is sufficient to stop it sliding sideways and the string tension holds it down in place anyway.  Assuming that you are going to have a gap behind and in front of the new nut to be filled, I would strongly suggest that you use hardwood to match the fingerboard.  You could glue a shim up against the end of the neck slot with two very small dabs of ordinary wood glue and the only parts that would show would be the end grain.  If you had to shim at the headstock end, you will have more of the shim showing, so it would be best to stain and colour match it.  You would be aiming to end up with a tight slot for the new nut to press into without even really needing glue to hold it, so sanding down the shims accurately is essential but very fiddly.

I would guess that an experienced luthier would probably cut a piece of rosewood to fill the old slot completely and disguise the chip-out next to the nut slot in the process.  It would be a much more accurate and permanent fix for the luthier to then cut a new slot in the correct position for the new nut to fit tightly in.  That is what I would be inclined to do rather than using thin shims.

I packed it at the fretboard end with a sliver of card, which gave me a reasonable snug fit and played it for a while.

The intonation was much better at the cowboy chord end of the fretboard, which is exactly what I wanted and surprisingly close at the other end. However, when I bent the g string, the nut moved laterally, towards the bass strings side because it obviously wasn’t snug enough, neither was it glued in. 

I’ve taken it off and replaced it with the old one for now and I’ll take it to a luthier and get the whole thing done properly, as you suggested.

The upside is that once it’s installed properly, it will do the job I wanted it to do.

Anyway, thanks for your input.

BillDL

You could temporarily hold the nut in place with a piece of double-sided tape to prevent it sliding sideways in the slot while you assess whether you wish to try and do this yourself, but you would have to bear in mind the thickness of the tape itself.

TheMarlin

A dot of superglue 

WayfarersAll

I would just get a good luthier to cut a new nut for it. Maybe do a setup as well. Intonation issues can be caused by many things. Maybe too much neck relief. Too high nut. Too high action. Poor fretting technique. Etc. Besides being in tune is over rated anyway! 

Evan

WayfarersAll said:

I would just get a good luthier to cut a new nut for it. Maybe do a setup as well. Intonation issues can be caused by many things. Maybe too much neck relief. Too high nut. Too high action. Poor fretting technique. Etc. Besides being in tune is over rated anyway! 

It will be going in for a setup soon, but I think I’ll stick with the Earvana, it’s only those cowboy - ish chords that are the problem and it seems to do a good job in that respect. 

It’s just my death grip combined with big frets and those damned out of tune open chords must be exterminated!

FelineGuitars

Ian - you are just in the centre of London - why not scoot the guitar down to us at Feline . 

Victoria station is the best choice for you - 15-17 mins on a fast train to East Croydon

That gap is a bit sloppy and nuts always need to be glued anyway, but we could get it neatly put in 

I know Denmark Street is temptingly close but not sure how much experience with compensated nut the repair guys there have, although in all likelihood they have lots.

Evan

FelineGuitars said:

Ian - you are just in the centre of London - why not scoot the guitar down to us at Feline . 

Victoria station is the best choice for you - 15-17 mins on a fast train to East Croydon

That gap is a bit sloppy and nuts always need to be glued anyway, but we could get it neatly put in 

I know Denmark Street is temptingly close but not sure how much experience with compensated nut the repair guys there have, although in all likelihood they have lots.

FelineGuitars said:

Ian - you are just in the centre of London - why not scoot the guitar down to us at Feline . 

Victoria station is the best choice for you - 15-17 mins on a fast train to East Croydon

That gap is a bit sloppy and nuts always need to be glued anyway, but we could get it neatly put in 

I know Denmark Street is temptingly close but not sure how much experience with compensated nut the repair guys there have, although in all likelihood they have lots.

Hi Jonathan. 

I know, that nut slot needs some work to say the least, it’s just too big and a bit chewed up. I’ve got it glued in with a spot of glue at the moment and it seems to be holding and doing it’s job, but as soon as I’ve got some time or can be bothered, I will be getting the guitar setup and that slot properly sorted out and also the nut slots themselves need to be a bit deeper. 

When that time comes, I’ll definitely bear you in mind. 

Thanks again for your help and advice.

grungebob

I’m confused what’s for sale, is it the old nut?

FelineGuitars

Just for clarity if the nut slot is too big then the nut needs to be glued up hard against the end of the fingerboard and any packing put in behind towards the headstock - 

Pushing the nut back from the fingerboard with packing will change the intonation point and give you a problem and certainly not correct a problem

Evan

FelineGuitars said:

Just for clarity if the nut slot is too big then the nut needs to be glued up hard against the end of the fingerboard and any packing put in behind towards the headstock - 

Pushing the nut back from the fingerboard with packing will change the intonation point and give you a problem and certainly not correct a problem

That’s exactly what I did and the intonation is pretty good all down the fretboard, although I’m sure when you or someone much better than I am at this stuff gets their hands on it, it’ll be even better. 

All in all, I’m really pleased with the result considering the state of the nut slot and getting the compensated nut was definitely the right decision.

Evan

grungebob said:

I’m confused what’s for sale, is it the old nut?

If you want to buy my old nut, be my guest.

grungebob

Evan said:

grungebob said:

I’m confused what’s for sale, is it the old nut?

If you want to buy my old nut, be my guest.

You’ve listed this thread in classifieds mate not the general guitar page. 

WayfarersAll

Call the Internet police! 

Evan

grungebob said:

Evan said:

grungebob said:

I’m confused what’s for sale, is it the old nut?

If you want to buy my old nut, be my guest.

You’ve listed this thread in classifieds mate not the general guitar page. 

Oops! Sorry! It won’t happen again, Sir!

Sassafras

Tighter underpants sorts out loose nuts.

Evan

Sassafras said:

Tighter underpants sorts out loose nuts.

Good idea - want to buy my old ones?

Evan

Evan said:

Sassafras said:

Tighter underpants sorts out loose nuts.

Good idea - want to buy my old ones?

Pants I mean, not my old nuts.