Why do you think the forum has a retention issue?

WiresDreamDisasters

Assuming it does, why do you think the forum struggles to retain people and/or bring new people along and grow? Bonus question - why do you think the forum isn't seen to be as important to the world of guitar as somewhere like The Gear Page ?

DefaultM

In before someone says because of you  haha.

I hadn't noticed to be honest. Who has left recently? I've seen some new people joining as well.

TimmyO

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Bonus question - why do you think the forum isn't seen to be as important to the world of guitar as somewhere like The Gear Page ?

Probably because it simply doesn't address such a big audience, so by extension it is perceived that it doesn't matter what this place collectively thinks when you can get a bigger slice of all guitarists in one other place. But I know you've always had concerns/issues/<whatever word fits best> with the "credibility" of this place - so maybe you have your own thoughts to share on that? 

I don't think it's the job of a forum to be important/credible so I've never understood the concern myself. 

WiresDreamDisasters

@TimmyO - it was raised to me in a discussion with admin recently, and I'm just curious what the "punters" think.

My view is the social element... probably too UK-centric... too boistrous... not very welcoming.. bit cliquey....

But also the musical/gear element... there isn't THAT much of it going on here.... the discussions about gear are pretty cylical... there aren't enough UK gear manufacturers to discuss... and what there is, is hidden away in making & modding and made in the UK, which people possibly aren't predisposed to checking out... 

My perception (which might be wrong) is that this is a forum of UK part-timers... and TGP is a forum of worldwide professionals/part-timers/hobbyists, etc etc.

I agree that I don't think a forum has a "job" as such. And maybe that's part of the problem - people are searching for one...

I think it's a shame that Peach and Andertons got chased off, as it were.

darthed1981

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I think it's a shame that Peach and Andertons got chased off, as it were.

I think that's a key area where TFB seems to have let itself down.  The pile ins on retailers and personalities go too far, far too far.

I might be naïve but I only post on TFB - found it a few years back googling for information on (ironically) forum-kryptonite product the Boss Katana, and still here, only really got time for one forum and it's this one.

We probably need a few more threads on when new product ranges are released etc, spur on a bit of discussion.  I could always start starting them.

Guitar prices are skyrocketing currently, but we talk very little about what a huge range of Squier Classic Vibes there are now etc, maybe because the forum skews towards "I just bought my 12th custom shop Fender this year".

skunkwerx

You can check out any time… but you can never truly leave!

monquixote

I think a lot of the reason the site isn't bigger is that it's not really been an objective of the site to grow for growths sake. 

As one of the founders there were a lot of talks in the early days about trying to turning it into some huge platform and if it should have a commercial aspect, but that wasn't the direction we decided to go. 

There is a lot of value in the site not being driven by commercial interests and being run as a fun place for the people who created it to hang out. 

I also think the mix here is fairly good in that there are a reasonable proportion of gigging musicians and makers. 
The number is not that high, but I think it's still higher than a lot of places.

The most important threads I think are the "dadsnet" style threads about mental health, etc in "Friends in need". When I think about my small part in setting up this site that's the thing that makes me proud that I contributed to something that makes the world a better place.

Mellish

Doesn't bother me. I can chat with others, share thoughts and ideas - and, if I want, I can leave by not coming back. As for wanting new members, well any forum wants that  

skunkwerx

I will add I do genuinely like this place and I hope to meet you all and say hi if there is a gathering in future. 

I’ve signed up to various forums in my time, but this is the only one I’ve stuck around on really! 

I’m not really sure I have the knowledge to answer your questions but maybe people being people just sign up or view the forum as a non member to get specific info, then thats their job done, or arent really social, or don’t see a forum as being social. Maybe. I dunno. 

Me, I just like chatting guitars and passing on anything I’ve learnt etc.  

skunkwerx

monquixote said:

I think a lot of the reason the site isn't bigger is that it's not really been an objective of the site to grow for growths sake. 

As one of the founders there were a lot of talks in the early days about trying to turning it into some huge platform and if it should have a commercial aspect, but that wasn't the direction we decided to go. 

There is a lot of value in the site not being driven by commercial interests and being run as a fun place for the people who created it to hang out. 

I also think the mix here is fairly good in that there are a reasonable proportion of gigging musicians and makers. 
The number is not that high, but I think it's still higher than a lot of places.

The most important threads I think are the "dadsnet" style threads about mental health, etc in "Friends in need". When I think about my small part in setting up this site that's the thing that makes me proud that I contributed to something that makes the world a better place.

Yeah true  

I found it lovely how many people commented when I posted about the blood clot etc, that made me feel real good that did. 

I see other posts as well for stuff far more serious and the support is great.

EricTheWeary

The Gear Page got in there first and is American and people on there buy more new stuff. Although I'd suggest that it has lost a lot of it's cache now. It is also heavily moderated so Joe Bonamassa or someone from Fender or whatever can go on there to publicise their latest album or widget and know that the worst they will get is polite disagreement and that what they have to say won't sit alongside threads on politics and which porn stars you know.

Retention is a huge issue for many businesses, organisations, platforms. I remember a documentary about the blood donor service and they said their key issue was retention. It’s not hard to get people to give blood once but it’s hard to get them coming back. They tried having music on, having music off, no biscuits, better biscuits, stickers, no stickers,etc,etc, and makes little difference ( they probably tried more profound stuff as well that I can’t remember!). People have their own reasons and you only work around the margins of that. When I had a job that involved retention it felt like making things easy for people seemed to help - on here that might be photo hosting, better search facilities,etc, but it would still be tinkering with the margins. And we aren’t saving lives or even selling advertising. 



   

Grumpyrocker

It's not exactly friendly to half the population.

Snags

Define "retention problem". What are we considering reasonable retention for an interest-based forum?

When the odd necro-thread comes up that's say 6+ years old there are a lot of names that don't appear to crop up any more, but equally, there are a fair few that do. And a number of regular posters periodically trot out the "I've been around since the musicradar days" (I haven't, by a long way).

Fundamentally I'd imagine it's because it is very UK-centric, and is much freer than other places in terms of content and moderation. So probably most of the reasons that the people who do stick around, stick around.

As for discussions being cyclical, when it comes to gear etc. it's kind of hard for them not to be. Other than "ooh, new, shiney" ATEOTD it's really "Oh, look another expensive box to make things loud, another little box to make things distort/delay/sound funny".

And on cliquey/not welcoming ... I've always thought the level of welcome one gets on a forum largely depends on how one introduces oneself. There are definitely a few different groups who either have long history online, or who know each other in real life, and that can lead to a few in-jokes, but I wouldn't say this place is unwelcoming. When you sign up anywhere you have to make the effort, read for a bit, get a feel for the place, join in appropriately. If you don't , you just skate around the edges. I've found this place far more welcoming than other forums I've used (on other topics) in the past, where there were tangible sets of old lags who more or less skated over posts from people they hadn't know since forever.

Maybe it helped that I made the effort to get off my arse and go to a few of the Real World events so got to know some people for realsies, but I wouldn't have done that in the first place if I thought it was clique central, because I'm basically a delicate insecure little flower, despite being largely dead inside.

BillDL

As a newbie I obviously haven't been here long enough to notice comings and goings of members.  What I would say, however, is that the "UK-centricity" of the forum is one of the main reasons I signed up here.

I've been a member of various US-based discussion and Q&A forums (not guitar-related) and I get fed up having to try and structure my sentences in a way where "foreigners" can understand what I am trying to portray.  I know it is a generalisation (there's an example of where a US grammar policeperson would demand to know why I didn't spell it "ize"), and I apologize if this is misconstrued by a US-based member here, but Americans have a very different sense of humour from us British people.  Attempts at subtle cynicism, sarcasm, etc are often taken literally and result in somebody being butt-hurt (spent too long on US ones, it should be arse-wounded) and the tongue-in-cheek comment flies right over their heads. It is entirely possible that we Brits miss a lot of subtlety in Americans' comments also.   I have found it refreshing to know that there are quite a few fellow Scots on here and some could even live quite close to me, but generally I feel much more comfortable hearing people talking about things with which I am immediately familiar and I understand the "Britishisms" being used.  Even though somebody may be talking about Gloucester or Rhyll or Ballymena, I still feel more at home on this side of the Atlantic.

There is also the aspect of "Trump" or "race" arguments that inevitably transpire from the most innocuous of discussions in the much more polarised American forums.  Yes, we inevitably end up side-tracked into "Boris" or "Tories" or "Sturgeon" disagreements in forums populated by British people, but I find them slightly less tiresome because i have a better idea what is being discussed or argued about.

If a question is asked about electricity here you can generally assume that answers will be relevant to 230v mains supply, standardised methods of wiring ring mains, and 3-pin plugs.  We are more comfortable using millimetres and metre measurements but are also more used to having to convert to 64ths or thousands of an inch than Americans are used to having to think about mm.  Links that people give here as buying suggestions or reference reading are most likely to be UK URLs, and when we talk about roughcast or mastic we know what it means, whereas Americans will refer to names for things with which we may not be immediately familiar, like spackle and caulk.

This all sounds anti-American and xenophobic, but it isn't intended to be.

With any forum it takes time to try and get a feel for how a comment is likely to be perceived and challenged, what members seem to have known each other for a while, and assess who is in a particular clique.  I would point out that a clique isn't necessarily a bad thing.  People naturally bond with others who share similar interests and experiences.  It is unavoidable.  On IT forums you will always get the "expert" who gives a one sentence opinionated and useless "answer" that doesn't address the issue, for example "Buy a Mac and you won't have that problem", or "Format and reinstall", or "Use Linux".  Although I have seen quite a few of the usual "throwaway" thoughtless comments here, in general most of the comments are more thoughtful and relevant to the topic under discussion than some other forums I have been a member of. 

In summation, I like this forum.  It seems to reflect a good cross section of society with regard to age, experience, musical knowledge, political thoughts, Covid thoughts, and so on.

VimFuego

I've not spent a lot of time on US based forums, but if we're gonna use them as some sort of ideal then we may need to introduce more gun based threads. I'm thinking along the lines of; what's your favourite goin' to church gun, which gun is best for a formal dinner, a 1st date, a bar mitzvah, my youngest's 1st day at pre school.

crunchman

The Gear Page has a retention issue.  I used to post reasonably regularly there 20 or so years ago.  These days I can't even remember my username and password.  I can't even be bothered to lurk there anymore.

digitalscream

TimmyO said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Bonus question - why do you think the forum isn't seen to be as important to the world of guitar as somewhere like The Gear Page ?

Probably because it simply doesn't address such a big audience, so by extension it is perceived that it doesn't matter what this place collectively thinks when you can get a bigger slice of all guitarists in one other place.

Funnily enough, having just added Google Analytics to the site, it transpires that we reach a lot more people on a regular basis than any of us thought.

Not just more than the core of regulars, either. Think "multiples of the total number of registered members".

Roland

Here it’s not so much a retention problem as a walk-away problem. Retention problems arise when users return less frequently. Often it’s because their lives have changed, or because the forum doesn’t provide interesting content. Walk-away is where people get fed up with content and/or behaviours.

Speaking personally the Fractal Audio forum doesn’t retain me because, once I’ve got an AxeFX organised I feel no need to return until there’s a significant firmware upgrade. In the past I’ve heard about those upgrades through theFretboard. 

Several other forums I’ve visited have members who are unwelcoming, or you’ve got to pick your way through threads, avoiding aggressive arguments. That’s what generates walk-aways.

monquixote said:

... The most important threads I think are the "dadsnet" style threads about mental health, etc in "Friends in need". When I think about my small part in setting up this site that's the thing that makes me proud that I contributed to something that makes the world a better place.

The Coronavirus section could have been similar. In the first few weeks we had medics who were in the thick of it sharing their experience. By the end of the first month it was full of keyboard warriors telling the world why their personal pseudoscience was the only true answer. Several medics remarked that they weren’t going to waste time posting in that environment and walked away.

TTony

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Why do you think the forum has a retention issue?

My initial thought was whether you meant that people don't stick around, or that the problem was that some people DO stick around.

:P

PolarityMan

I think we might have a short-medium term retention problem because we have such good long term retention if you see what I mean. 

TTony

WiresDreamDisasters said:

My perception (which might be wrong) is that this is a forum of UK part-timers... and TGP is a forum of worldwide professionals/part-timers/hobbyists, etc etc.

My perception of TGP is that it's primarily US, rather than worldwide.  

This forum is probably a lot less serious than TGP.  Is that because we don't have (many) full-time professionals here, or do we not have those professionals here  because the forum is less serious?

People are free to come and go as they please.  Literally, free.  There's no financial cost to entry or exit which perhaps means that it's treated more casually.   

I think it does have a job though, and it's pretty much the job that the original 4 of us decided on, and I think it does the job pretty well.  The job is an online community meeting place for people who have some level of interest in guitars and music more widely.  I wouldn't hazard a guess at the actual %number, but I'd expect a significant minority of members don't come here primarily for the guitar chat.  They come here for all the other chat.  Buying the right toaster is a more important decision than buying the right guitar.

monquixote said:

The most important threads I think are the "dadsnet" style threads about mental health, etc in "Friends in need". When I think about my small part in setting up this site that's the thing that makes me proud that I contributed to something that makes the world a better place.

^^^^