Why do you think the forum has a retention issue?

Strangefan

To answer the original question...... Too many know it alls, who refuse to be proven wrong..... Makes for a toxic place.... 

monquixote

Kittyfrisk said:

digitalscream said:

TimmyO said:

Away from tone/content, the platform itself is a drag factor - particularly on mobile. I know Lee has lots of reasons for preferring not to (hosting on already owned server rather than extra cost for a DO droplet among them) but a shift over to Discourse* (for example) would be a huge step imo. 

* not a typo of Discord 

The thing is, I've tried migrations to all of the available forums solutions, including Discourse.

The main black mark that Discourse has against it is the massive hosting requirements for the traffic levels we have - even hosting on DigitalOcean, it would cost at least three times as much as Vanilla to handle it at decent levels of performance, not to mention that it has a bunch of architectural choices which are (in my opinion) short-sighted and based entirely on flavour-of-the-month technologies, and thus a maintenance headache waiting to happen.

The problem that all of them have is that while they all have migration packages for Vanilla, every single one of them crashes because they're so poorly-written. Because everybody kept going on about Discourse, I actually spent two days trying to fix their Vanilla import code, and then gave up. Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that it's written in Rails, I just don't love the way the project's run, the front end code or the mandatory Sidekiq and Redis components when they're entirely unnecessary and apparently only there to cover up the cracks in the back end optimisation.

Other forum projects suffer from different issues, the main one being that they're usually written in PHP, so moving to them wouldn't really be an improvement over what we already have ("a bunch of loosely-taped-together PHP code" is the #1 bug in Vanilla...).

I'm a little opinionated, it's true.

I think you possibly meant ... "I'm a little experienced, it's true".

It's annoying that it's such a random smoosh of PHP junk.

It's my fault it's on Vanilla (which I've apologied to Lee for on more than one occasion) but we did look at the available options and it was the best of a bad lot.

If the code was better structured it would be possible to break out an API layer and then build out mobile apps and a nicer front end, but it's a total PITA to work with.

DefaultM

What's wrong with the forum software? Its my favourite of all the forums I've been on in 20 years. Fits perfectly on mobile screen, saves your post drafts, search isn't great but it never is on forums, you can move your own threads to different areas, has sub forums that don't appear in Google, PM system is good.

digitalscream

monquixote said:

It's annoying that it's such a random smoosh of PHP junk.

It's my fault it's on Vanilla (which I've apologied to Lee for on more than one occasion) but we did look at the available options and it was the best of a bad lot.

If the code was better structured it would be possible to break out an API layer and then build out mobile apps and a nicer front end, but it's a total PITA to work with.

To be fair, I think I was the one who first brought it up - because it was running the Penny Arcade forum at the time, as well as a couple of others which I also thought looked great. I didn't make the decision, though, because I was only supposed to be taking care of the hosting at the time.

Which, now that I think about it, makes me wonder how I ended up holding the baby...?

monquixote

digitalscream said:

monquixote said:

It's annoying that it's such a random smoosh of PHP junk.

It's my fault it's on Vanilla (which I've apologied to Lee for on more than one occasion) but we did look at the available options and it was the best of a bad lot.

If the code was better structured it would be possible to break out an API layer and then build out mobile apps and a nicer front end, but it's a total PITA to work with.

To be fair, I think I was the one who first brought it up - because it was running the Penny Arcade forum at the time, as well as a couple of others which I also thought looked great. I didn't make the decision, though, because I was only supposed to be taking care of the hosting at the time.

Which, now that I think about it, makes me wonder how I ended up holding the baby...?

I'd still really like to build it out, but it's been years since I've confronted the horror of PHP and I don't think I can face it!

TheBigDipper

I like the forum just the way it is. I didn't know there was a retention issue. I keep reading posts from people I've read posts from before. Let's not forget that social media has its positives and its negatives. It's understandable if some people take a break from it sometimes and appear to have left us. 

I can't comment on the underlying technology or how easy/hard it is to support because it's not my area of expertise.

As a guitarist and user of the place, it suits me to be UK-centric (in the main) and I'm comfy about the old school simplicity of the interface. I don't like forums that constantly bombard you with pop-ups, video clips, ads, etc. Just because you can doesn't mean you should... 

There are always people who don't know how to behave in public and use the anonymity of the forum to be rude, inconsistent, troll and sometimes just plain divisive and malicious. I feel sorry for the mods having to deal with those people - but, TBH, it's often our fault for feeding their posts and keeping them alive. The ignore feature is there if you need it.

I think you're doing a good job and I'm pleased to be here. Thanks! 

maharg101

From a usability perspective I like the forum as it is. I like the interface on both mobile and desktop versions. It has some quirks but nothing serious.

Technically - if the Vanilla software is secure and performant, I don't think there is any pressure to deliver an "improved" interface or mobile app.

As to the issue of retention - the volume of posts and comments seems pretty decent to me. I'd let things run for a year or two and see what the ad revenue from unregistered / non-logged in users is like.

If you do decide to migrate from Vanilla, I'd recommend just aiming for something with a responsive interface rather than thinking about a mobile app. If I was migrating the site, I'd probably look to https://misago-project.org/ as I work mainly in Python / Django. If you could use any help with munging anything data migration wise, I'd be happy to help.

From a people and content perspective, I think it's a pretty good community here. There are some characters for sure, but the modmins do a decent job from what I've seen (thank you). The adverse behaviours also get called out by the community. No forum is perfect, but this is pretty good. 

Dav275

TheBigDipper said:

I like the forum just the way it is. I didn't know there was a retention issue. I keep reading posts from people I've read posts from before. Let's not forget that social media has its positives and its negatives. It's understandable if some people take a break from it sometimes and appear to have left us. 

I can't comment on the underlying technology or how easy/hard it is to support because it's not my area of expertise.

As a guitarist and user of the place, it suits me to be UK-centric (in the main) and I'm comfy about the old school simplicity of the interface. I don't like forums that constantly bombard you with pop-ups, video clips, ads, etc. Just because you can doesn't mean you should... 

There are always people who don't know how to behave in public and use the anonymity of the forum to be rude, inconsistent, troll and sometimes just plain divisive and malicious. I feel sorry for the mods having to deal with those people - but, TBH, it's often our fault for feeding their posts and keeping them alive. The ignore feature is there if you need it.

I think you're doing a good job and I'm pleased to be here. Thanks! 

Wow. That's exactly what I've been thinking whilst reading this thread.  Another satisfied customer here.
( @TheBigDipper ; - thanks for typing it for me  )

scrumhalf

I'm generally happy with this place.

One thing I would like to change would be something to restrict the number of previous posts that a post can quote. On a phone you end up with a quote being a single character wide and the thread becomes unreadable. 

Grumpyrocker

Forums are on the wane a bit on the whole. Eurogamer recently removed its forum, which had been hugely popular for around 20 years. The effort of keeping it secure and moderated - and the rise in off-site social media - made them bring it to an end. I haven't posted there for nearly a decade - but I still have lots of friends I met there that I keep in touch with via other means.

 

WiresDreamDisasters

Strangefan said:

To answer the original question...... Too many know it alls, who refuse to be proven wrong..... Makes for a toxic place.... 

Well akshually.....

Yorkie

Sassafras said:

People don't hang around once they discover the average age of our members is about 85.

85 and retention issues? I’d say it’s normal. 

JEM

<delurk>

I'm one of the aforementioned lurkers on here. I created an account a while back with the intention of posting but found I never really had much to contribute. I rarely buy or sell gear and I don't gig. There is a wealth of useful information on here so I still pop in for a look every now and then.

The discussion on here can get a bit robust but no more so than most other forums. The mods seem a particularly decent bunch and seem to hit the right balance in keeping the peace.

I also quite like the software used which despite being a bit dated still works very well on most platforms.

Anyway, like I said, I don't have much to contribute so I'll crawl back under my rock. I did recently buy a cheap little Peavey transtube amp on the strength of a thread on here so if Hermes ever manage to deliver it I may even post a review.

</delurk>

tanihhiavlt

TheBigDipper said:

I didn't know there was a retention issue. 

Agreed. Well the title says "why do you think the forum has a retention issue?" - which I read as "what makes you think the forum has a retention issue?"

viewed through that lens, the thread is pretty disappointing as there's no mention of telemetry, foot-prints, tracking cookies or any manner of snooping that we've come to expect from the internet ... at all. No marketing strategies and no goals or KPIs to monetise our content. Just people using the internet in the fashion we used to when amazon only sold books.

Is there a retention issue? What are we comparing it to? Government Websites? Grindr? We've not established any baselines for facts prior to introspection - which just means there's nary a bastard on the team. Cos they are always my first thoughts when someone shakes the products I work with, to see what's loose.

Springywheel

We need more threads like ‘Decent value website to buy linen sets’ - that’ll bring the punters in 

darthed1981

Yorkie said:

Sassafras said:

People don't hang around once they discover the average age of our members is about 85.

85 and retention issues? I’d say it’s normal. 

I was about to come in and post

"I think we have all grown as people, given the age of the average forum poster, that nobody has mentioned retention of urine yet..."

...and you've ruined it!!

randella

JEM said:

<delurk>

I'm one of the aforementioned lurkers on here. I created an account a while back with the intention of posting but found I never really had much to contribute.

</delurk>

I signed up specifically to ask if anyone knew the distance between the end of the fretboard and the leading edge of the neck humbucker on a Charvel San Dimas. I never did find out, and it certainly hasn't stopped me posting whatever tosh comes to mind

EDIT - I also can't remember for the life of me why I wanted to know that measurement.

artiebear

The very existence of this thread and the number of responses are testimony to what a good forum TFB is. I dip in and out, rather than regularly contribute and usually enjoy the gear/music related conversations. I do have to admit that I don't think the forum is really aimed at folks like me ( been a pro musician for 40 years, as well as working for major labels from A&R through to distribution etc ), but I still love guitar and gear in general and will happily bore my mates / fellow musicians  to death in the pub talking shite about gear and music in general. In fact previously defending fellow musicians and writers on here got enough playground responses to make me withdraw completely for a while. Having said that, I would have loved this when I was get started, when the only way to find out about gear was in a couple of magazines.

The mods do a brilliant job, the format is simple and as far as I can see, the forum does a brilliant job of policing itself, simply down to the fact that there is a solid user base. 

It is so much better than some States based forums, in that the conversation is, generally, an interweaving of opinions and responses rather than a thread full of unrelated parallel responses with little regard to what has gone before.

designerseye88

I find this a very easy forum to use, My only gripe is that it's not straightforward to just post some pics. I plan on selling a guitar here soon and posting a NGD but It's such a faff to upload all the pics It put's me off. Other than that though its a great place, much more receptive and easier to use the other similar forums.

fob

Stuckfast said:

fob said:

Jalapeno said:

 misogynist. 

Again, I'm not saying this wrong just that I haven't seen it. Which thread/post is the latest example of this?

Well there was the infamous 'M|LF' thread in Off Topic a while back. And it doesn't seem possible to discuss the music of artists such as St Vincent without gratuitous photos and thigh-rubbing.

Snags said:

That's not misogynistic it's just a bit sexist and a lot unnecessary and inappropriate. It's like saying chunks of mumsnet are full of misandry if they bang on about Jason Mamoa or similar.   

Yep, not mysogynistic or sexist; unnecessary accounts for 90% of all posts, and inappropriate in regards to what? Posting your favourite sexy-person in a thread about humbuckers might be inapproprite but obviously isn't in a thread about sexy-people.

Just did a quick search on here for St Vincent (who is not shy in using her sexuality and good on her) and there are surprisingly few hits and far fewer photos. As for the thigh-rubbing - neurotic projection is the term that comes to mind.

As for the software - I quite like the look: simple, clean, and easy to read. It's not without its issues but I'm a member of quite a few fora and I've never thought "I wish TFB was set out like this."