Duncan vs Dimarzio characteristics

ICBM

Funkfingers said:

Until recently, I have tended to avoid having DiMarzio pickups in my own guitars. This changed when I modified an ex-Harry Seven Charvel Model 3. I fed it an old The Breed humbucker and an Air Norton S.

Immediately, I could extract certain Vai/Gilbert/Petrucci tones that none of my other guitars yield. 'Tis pity that I lack the talent of those guys to fully exploit the DiMarzio sounds.

Likewise - until a few years ago when I 'discovered' Vai, I'd never really liked DiMarzios, there was always something that rubbed me up slightly the wrong way about the sound. Then suddenly, listening to that sound, I realised that - rather like Vai himself - I had misjudged them and they *are* great, just different from what I'd previously been used to, and for that type of sound they're perfect.

This discussion is actually quite interesting - I always thought it might be 'just me', so it's pleasing to discover it isn't. It also explains why I've never liked mixing them in the same guitar... ever. The only times I've heard both in the same guitar, *both* pickups sounded wrong somehow. Changing just one to the same brand as the other made the whole guitar sound right.

Reverend

Philly_Q said:

If nothing else follows from this thread, I think I have convinced myself to buy a DiMarzio Norton.

my Ibanez destroyer 2 came with one and it sounds great. 

Philly_Q

Reverend said:

Philly_Q said:

If nothing else follows from this thread, I think I have convinced myself to buy a DiMarzio Norton.

my Ibanez destroyer 2 came with one and it sounds great. 

@Reverend ; Excellent.  Not too bassy in a set-neck?  That was my fear, that it would be too similar to the Tone Zone, which I tried in an SG and a Gordon smith GS2 - and really didn't like it.

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

Funkfingers said:

Until recently, I have tended to avoid having DiMarzio pickups in my own guitars. This changed when I modified an ex-Harry Seven Charvel Model 3. I fed it an old The Breed humbucker and an Air Norton S.

Immediately, I could extract certain Vai/Gilbert/Petrucci tones that none of my other guitars yield. 'Tis pity that I lack the talent of those guys to fully exploit the DiMarzio sounds.

Likewise - until a few years ago when I 'discovered' Vai, I'd never really liked DiMarzios, there was always something that rubbed me up slightly the wrong way about the sound. Then suddenly, listening to that sound, I realised that - rather like Vai himself - I had misjudged them and they *are* great, just different from what I'd previously been used to, and for that type of sound they're perfect.

This discussion is actually quite interesting - I always thought it might be 'just me', so it's pleasing to discover it isn't. It also explains why I've never liked mixing them in the same guitar... ever. The only times I've heard both in the same guitar, *both* pickups sounded wrong somehow. Changing just one to the same brand as the other made the whole guitar sound right.

I think that's one of the reasons why I said I prefer the "feel" of Dimarzios- I'm kind of a frustrated shredder at heart, so anything which helps me to do it a bit better is always going to appeal to me. Just I think I prefer the tone of the more classic-voiced pickups. And handwound, at least to my ears and fingers, seems to sort of give me the best of both worlds...

Funkfingers

DiMarzio pickups do seem inclined in favour of overdrive/distortion applications. For me, the most pleasantly surprising in this regard are the Injector bridge and neck pair.

Philly_Q said: 

Not too bassy in a set-neck?  That was my fear, that it would be too similar to the Tone Zone, which I tried in an SG and a Gordon smith GS2 - and really didn't like it.

The DP155 Tone Zone is intended to compensate for the metallic overtones contributed by an all-steel Original Floyd Rose vibrato. I acquired one via an abused Ibanez RG565 … which the pickup did not suit because the mk1 Edge vibrato is mainly zinc.

guitars4you

I have a  fondness towards some Music Man Guitars - Ignore the EVH flavoured Axis for now and/or the EVH model - But the Silhouette based model that use single coil DiMarzio's are obviously built for the USA Country music - P/ups far to thin and twangy for me - IMO there is no way you can get a far SRV/blues based tone from them - But I like they way they feel/play - Now heard/played 2/3 Silhouette models with the DiMarzio's removed and now fitted with BK pick-ups and they sound so much better as a blues/SRV based guitar

Philly_Q

Funkfingers said:

Philly_Q said: 

Not too bassy in a set-neck?  That was my fear, that it would be too similar to the Tone Zone, which I tried in an SG and a Gordon smith GS2 - and really didn't like it.

The DP155 Tone Zone is intended to compensate for the metallic overtones contributed by an all-steel Original Floyd Rose vibrato. I acquired one via an abused Ibanez RG565 … which the pickup did not suit because the mk1 Edge vibrato is mainly zinc.

This was in the days before I realised that a pickup which sounds great in guitar A isn't necessarily going to sound great in guitar B (although I guess there are some who'd claim that all electric guitars sound exactly the same, regardless of construction...).  I just liked the description of the Tone Zone and ignored the fact that the guys using it all had basswood superstrats with Floyds or Edge tremolos.

The Norton, on the other hand, "is really good for opening up the sound of mahogany set-neck guitars", say DiMarzio.  Which sounds a lot more up my street.

Yamaha77

Philly_Q said:

Funkfingers said:

Philly_Q said: 

Not too bassy in a set-neck?  That was my fear, that it would be too similar to the Tone Zone, which I tried in an SG and a Gordon smith GS2 - and really didn't like it.

The DP155 Tone Zone is intended to compensate for the metallic overtones contributed by an all-steel Original Floyd Rose vibrato. I acquired one via an abused Ibanez RG565 … which the pickup did not suit because the mk1 Edge vibrato is mainly zinc.

This was in the days before I realised that a pickup which sounds great in guitar A isn't necessarily going to sound great in guitar B (although I guess there are some who'd claim that all electric guitars sound exactly the same, regardless of construction...).  I just liked the description of the Tone Zone and ignored the fact that the guys using it all had basswood superstrats with Floyds or Edge tremolos.

The Norton, on the other hand, "is really good for opening up the sound of mahogany set-neck guitars", say DiMarzio.  Which sounds a lot more up my street.

This exactly.

I also class Mo Joe as vintage hot. Fred is a little more shifted towards treble and hi mids. Norton is a fantastic pickup.

There's a definite shortage of Dimarzio dealers in the UK. I don't buy into boutique like BKP as a lot of it is snake oil. Only so many wind type, wire gauge, base plate, magnet type, inductance and DC resistance differences. For instance their rebel yell was a take on a JB that Steve Stevens/Billy Idol was a user of for many years.

Duncan's have the same wind in custom, cc and c5 and the only difference is magnet swap. If a pickup doesn't suit a guitar the first thing I try is a magnet swap.

TTBZ

Yamaha77 said:

Duncan's have the same wind in custom, cc and c5 and the only difference is magnet swap. If a pickup doesn't suit a guitar the first thing I try is a magnet swap.

Yeah I've had a Custom 5 for ages, it started life as a Custom Custom but I preferred the C5 with my old guitar. In the strat it's in now it's a bit too scooped, I may try the A2 again for more mids but I remember I didn't like the looser low end. Would ceramic (Custom) be less scooped and brighter than the C5? Or I may put the A8 magnet back in it, I had it as the "unofficial" Custom 8 for a while in my SG which was good.

tekbow

I'll bring this point up, does anyone feel like Dimarzio have artist associations to a fault and that maybe sometimes put people off?

For example, the EVO, the Satriani stuff, the Petrucci, even the Chopper T which is heavily associated with Kotzen?

Now, I've owned way more Dimarzios by way of guitars that came factory fitted with them, and I've never wanted to change any, but on guitars I have changed pickups I always looked at Duncan then at BKP.

There's something about Dimarzio marketing blurb, to my mind, that makes you feel like you're going to end up copping the tones of the artist as opposed to judging the pickup on its own potential sonic merit.

With Duncan, I feel way more like I can imagine what that pickup can achieve for me when reading descriptions.

I feel like Duncan have more industry Standards as well? The JB, The 59 etc etc not associated with a particular artist but used by many?

This post is purely a question of perception and potential appeal, because I'm pretty sure that being the industry standard "go to" for aftermarket pickups would be worth plenty to a company.

Funkfingers

Depends which way you come at it.

Judging by Internet auction listing sites, a premium is being charged for Duncan JB, '59 and Distortion humbuckers wound by Maricela Juarez. 

Anyone buying one, expecting it to be special, is likely to convince themselves that it is, somehow, above average.

What I tend to find is that, when I hear a particularly nice old JB or Distortion, if I inspect the model ID label on its baseplate, it ends with a J.

For several years, MJ has been mostly working in the SD Custom Shop, winding bespoke pickups. I do not know how much time she now spends on the production line. I do know that the bog standard TB-6 Distortion Trembucker in my PRS SE Custom sounds excellent.

Philly_Q

@tekbow Interesting point, I hadn't really thought about it but I don't think the DiMarzio artist associations actually put me off, it may be more that they give a preconceived notion of what the pickups are intended for, so I never consider them in the first place rather than actually dismissing them.

With the Vai and Petrucci models, it's not so much the artist association as the fact that there are so many different pickups - I just think "too confusing".  And they're mostly high-output models which I tend not to contemplate.  Also some of the Vai (and Nita Strauss) ones have those weird covers which don't appeal.

With the Satriani models, I'm no more of a Satriani fan than I am a Vai or Petrucci fan, but I bought a FRED (and PAF Pro) and liked them, so that gives me a reference point for his other pickups, which I would certainly consider buying.

I did buy a set of Billy Corgan pickups, just because I thought they sounded cool (from descriptions and reviews).  Again, not really a Corgan fan.

Actually, the more I think about it, it doesn't matter to me who the artists are, I have no expectation at all of sounding like them if I buy their pickups!  I don't listen to Satriani and think "ah, that's what a Satchurator sounds like", I'd need his entire signal chain and more importantly his brain and fingers.

As for reading descriptions and looking at tone charts, I think they just give a frame of reference once you've actually tried a few of them.  I've got a pretty good idea of where I am with the Duncan and DiMarzio ranges (up to about 1995, at least!), just because I bought a lot of them.  When I started buying BKPs I had no idea what to expect from the descriptions, but once I'd tried a few I had reference points for other models.

Dave_Mc

Funkfingers said:

DiMarzio pickups do seem inclined in favour of overdrive/distortion applications. For me, the most pleasantly surprising in this regard are the Injector bridge and neck pair.

Philly_Q said: 

Not too bassy in a set-neck?  That was my fear, that it would be too similar to the Tone Zone, which I tried in an SG and a Gordon smith GS2 - and really didn't like it.

The DP155 Tone Zone is intended to compensate for the metallic overtones contributed by an all-steel Original Floyd Rose vibrato. I acquired one via an abused Ibanez RG565 … which the pickup did not suit because the mk1 Edge vibrato is mainly zinc.

Yeah that's sort of what I was trying to get at, except I'm far too long-winded. The Dimarzios seem to hold together better under more modern amounts of distortion. At least the ones I've tried. 

I had a Tone Zone in a Charvel with an FRT-x000 (and no tone knob). I think it was a little better than it is in my Lag with a Wilkinson, but still probably too dark for my tastes. It's a bit annoying that it was designed with such a niche as you suggested- it's a bit like the Duncan JB, it tends to be fitted to everything, whether it suits it or not!

tekbow said:

I'll bring this point up, does anyone feel like Dimarzio have artist associations to a fault and that maybe sometimes put people off?

For example, the EVO, the Satriani stuff, the Petrucci, even the Chopper T which is heavily associated with Kotzen?

Now, I've owned way more Dimarzios by way of guitars that came factory fitted with them, and I've never wanted to change any, but on guitars I have changed pickups I always looked at Duncan then at BKP.

There's something about Dimarzio marketing blurb, to my mind, that makes you feel like you're going to end up copping the tones of the artist as opposed to judging the pickup on its own potential sonic merit.

With Duncan, I feel way more like I can imagine what that pickup can achieve for me when reading descriptions.

I feel like Duncan have more industry Standards as well? The JB, The 59 etc etc not associated with a particular artist but used by many?

This post is purely a question of perception and potential appeal, because I'm pretty sure that being the industry standard "go to" for aftermarket pickups would be worth plenty to a company.

Probably. I guess you could say that the Super Distortion and PAF, and maybe the PAF Pro, Tone Zone and Air Norton to a slightly lesser extent, aren't so heavily artist-orientated and are more industry standards, but apart from them...

tekbow

Dave_Mc said:

Funkfingers said:

DiMarzio pickups do seem inclined in favour of overdrive/distortion applications. For me, the most pleasantly surprising in this regard are the Injector bridge and neck pair.

Philly_Q said: 

Not too bassy in a set-neck?  That was my fear, that it would be too similar to the Tone Zone, which I tried in an SG and a Gordon smith GS2 - and really didn't like it.

The DP155 Tone Zone is intended to compensate for the metallic overtones contributed by an all-steel Original Floyd Rose vibrato. I acquired one via an abused Ibanez RG565 … which the pickup did not suit because the mk1 Edge vibrato is mainly zinc.

Yeah that's sort of what I was trying to get at, except I'm far too long-winded. The Dimarzios seem to hold together better under more modern amounts of distortion. At least the ones I've tried. 

I had a Tone Zone in a Charvel with an FRT-x000 (and no tone knob). I think it was a little better than it is in my Lag with a Wilkinson, but still probably too dark for my tastes. It's a bit annoying that it was designed with such a niche as you suggested- it's a bit like the Duncan JB, it tends to be fitted to everything, whether it suits it or not!

tekbow said:

I'll bring this point up, does anyone feel like Dimarzio have artist associations to a fault and that maybe sometimes put people off?

For example, the EVO, the Satriani stuff, the Petrucci, even the Chopper T which is heavily associated with Kotzen?

Now, I've owned way more Dimarzios by way of guitars that came factory fitted with them, and I've never wanted to change any, but on guitars I have changed pickups I always looked at Duncan then at BKP.

There's something about Dimarzio marketing blurb, to my mind, that makes you feel like you're going to end up copping the tones of the artist as opposed to judging the pickup on its own potential sonic merit.

With Duncan, I feel way more like I can imagine what that pickup can achieve for me when reading descriptions.

I feel like Duncan have more industry Standards as well? The JB, The 59 etc etc not associated with a particular artist but used by many?

This post is purely a question of perception and potential appeal, because I'm pretty sure that being the industry standard "go to" for aftermarket pickups would be worth plenty to a company.

Probably. I guess you could say that the Super Distortion and PAF, and maybe the PAF Pro, Tone Zone and Air Norton to a slightly lesser extent, aren't so heavily artist-orientated and are more industry standards, but apart from them...

There's A question, Duncan Distortion vs the Super Distortion, both companies earliest models.

I guess this would be the epitome of the general characteristics described earlier.

Philly_Q

I wonder how the JB and '59 became industry standards in the first place?  Did manufacturers approach Duncan, because their pickups were well-regarded, or did Duncan actually have a marketing strategy of going straight to the manufacturers?  I don't know the answer.

Thinking back to the very early '80s, DiMarzios were common on budget Japanese guitars and on a couple of premium brands like BC Rich and Hamer.  But then Seymour Duncan seemed to take over, apart from DiMarzio's association with Ibanez.

tekbow

Philly_Q said:

I wonder how the JB and '59 became industry standards in the first place?  Did manufacturers approach Duncan, because their pickups were well-regarded, or did Duncan actually have a marketing strategy of going straight to the manufacturers?  I don't know the answer.

Thinking back to the very early '80s, DiMarzios were common on budget Japanese guitars and on a couple of premium brands like BC Rich and Hamer.  But then Seymour Duncan seemed to take over, apart from DiMarzio's association with Ibanez.

They seem to have a pretty solid relationship with EBMM too

Philly_Q

You're right, I forgot them.

tekbow

Philly_Q said:

You're right, I forgot them.

You're right though, I remember a lot of the catalogues from the 90's, especially for the brands aimed at hard rock to metal (Jackson, ESP etc) would either have Duncan or EMG in their high end, US made models.

It was really only Ibanez that I remember having LOTS of Dimarzio. EBMM wasnt as big and at that time I think it was only the EVH/Axis. The Lukes still used EMG.

Since Petrucci, Dimarzio must have added at least half a dozen pickups to their range just for his EBMMs

octatonic

Philly_Q said:

I wonder how the JB and '59 became industry standards in the first place?  Did manufacturers approach Duncan, because their pickups were well-regarded, or did Duncan actually have a marketing strategy of going straight to the manufacturers?  I don't know the answer.

Thinking back to the very early '80s, DiMarzios were common on budget Japanese guitars and on a couple of premium brands like BC Rich and Hamer.  But then Seymour Duncan seemed to take over, apart from DiMarzio's association with Ibanez.

They started as aftermarket.
They were just the best.

Schnozz

Guitar: Duncan > Dimarzio
Bass: Dimarzio > Duncan

If I replace anything, I would always use one of these two...Although I do like Alegree.