Adulting: Part 1 - buying a new boiler. Help needed

Jalapeno

Haych said:

spark240 said:

Shouldn't we be considering alternatives nowadays ?

All electric boilers etc?

When we've all switched over to electric cars and electric heating, will the grid be able to cope with the massive surge in demand?

Knowing Blighty we'll import extra capacity from other countries <insert eyeroll here>t

It can't cope now, hence we're importing power from France etc.  (France has >50 nuclear reactors, so tons of spare capacity) - his is what we need to get going with Channel Islands first !

exocet

hywelg said:

My Baxi is 27 years old and due for replacement but it works so I'm sticking with it until the picture is clearer regarding new tech. 

I would spend on a ground source heat pump but for the problem that I live in a splendid Edwardian house with original sash windows, stained glass, cavity walls and elaborate cornice to the main rooms. So indeed deep borehole ground source but that is a hell of a long way off yet.

So insulating is problematic. All the uneducated plebs say of course you can;

• Fit new double glazed sash windows.
• Retain your stained glass
• Fit cavity wall insulation
• Insulate your external walls internally or externally.

To which I say

• Yes there are good versions that look good from the outside but they are hellish expensive approx £1.5k per sash and I have 16 of them to replace . And they look crap on the inside because the frames are so deep there's no room for a staff bead on the inside.
• If you encapsulate your stained glass you lose much of its character
• Cavity wall insulation with old porous brick work is well known to produce damp problems.
• Cost to fit insulation is one thing, the add on cost to replicate cornice, dado rail, skirting boards dwarfs it. No way will I fit external insulation over beautiful old narrow jointed aged brickwork.
• Besides why would I want to insulate my bedrooms when we sleep with the window open 10 months of the year. Not allowed to miss bits out and still comply.

I often end up raging when I hear some of the tosh that comes out of eco proponents. 

I very much agree with your observations, which also apply to a significant %age of UK housing stock.

I very much doubt that you'll see Gas Boilers being banned within your lifetime - the sale of gas boilers "yes" but the use of gas boilers "no".

The issue will be simply one of heating costs which are going to become astronomical - the home owner will have to make a choice - stay as they are and pay the bills or accept colder houses. 

Haych

I don't understand the British love affair with building houses from bricks and mortar.  Things have come a long way, true, and modern homes are far more thermally efficient than older housing stock, but when you compare UK homes to those being built in other parts of the world we're still in the dark ages.

Scandinavia build much more thermally efficient homes and from renewable sources to boot.  And they build them far faster!  Why do we not follow their lead instead of insisting we use bricks and mortar?  I'm sure much of it is to do with council planning committees having their toes stepped on and not wanting a foreign looking building in their community.

Also, why are we not investing in geothermal technology?  I'm sure the answer will be the associated price tag - the main reason why COP26 is a complete waste of time, effort and energy - while ever profit making industry is responsible for ushering in change, that change will progress very slowly and very little.  If we can detach the price tag then real change might happen - oh, look, a unicorn!

Anyway, back to my question.  I used to date a girl who lived in a new, modern and eco-friendly apartment complex.  The heating and hot water for the complex was provided by a geothermal bore hole - an endless supply of heating and hot water available and all paid for within the monthly rent payment.  Nobody worried about the cost of running a bath, washing the dishes or staying warm during the winter - it was toasty warm too, not just a case of putting the heating on to take the chill off, it was proper cosy warm with not a boiler in sight.

The technology is available, madness that we don't use it.  Of course, somebody wants paying, investors and shareholders need their dividend.

So the real answer to why none of this happens is that the capitalist model is the driver.  The capitalist model is broken and if we keep putting the cart before the horse and profit before progress, progress will be dismally slow.

Philly_Q

Haych said:

Anyway, back to my question.  I used to date a girl who lived in a new, modern and eco-friendly apartment complex.  The heating and hot water for the complex was provided by a geothermal bore hole - an endless supply of heating and hot water available and all paid for within the monthly rent payment.  Nobody worried about the cost of running a bath, washing the dishes or staying warm during the winter - it was toasty warm too, not just a case of putting the heating on to take the chill off, it was proper cosy warm with not a boiler in sight.

Presumably that wasn't in the UK?  From a British perspective it sounds like science fiction.

exocet

Haych said:

I don't understand the British love affair with building houses from bricks and mortar.  Things have come a long way, true, and modern homes are far more thermally efficient than older housing stock, but when you compare UK homes to those being built in other parts of the world we're still in the dark ages.

Scandinavia build much more thermally efficient homes and from renewable sources to boot.  And they build them far faster!  Why do we not follow their lead instead of insisting we use bricks and mortar?  I'm sure much of it is to do with council planning committees having their toes stepped on and not wanting a foreign looking building in their community.

Also, why are we not investing in geothermal technology?  I'm sure the answer will be the associated price tag - the main reason why COP26 is a complete waste of time, effort and energy - while ever profit making industry is responsible for ushering in change, that change will progress very slowly and very little.  If we can detach the price tag then real change might happen - oh, look, a unicorn!

Anyway, back to my question.  I used to date a girl who lived in a new, modern and eco-friendly apartment complex.  The heating and hot water for the complex was provided by a geothermal bore hole - an endless supply of heating and hot water available and all paid for within the monthly rent payment.  Nobody worried about the cost of running a bath, washing the dishes or staying warm during the winter - it was toasty warm too, not just a case of putting the heating on to take the chill off, it was proper cosy warm with not a boiler in sight.

The technology is available, madness that we don't use it.  Of course, somebody wants paying, investors and shareholders need their dividend.

So the real answer to why none of this happens is that the capitalist model is the driver.  The capitalist model is broken and if we keep putting the cart before the horse and profit before progress, progress will be dismally slow.

All very good points - I've often pondered them myself.

Whenever I've read about it - there have been various reasons / objections raised to changing what we have done.

1. If it a'int broke, don't fix it i.e. why change because no one is complaining / regulations allow us to build how we build. Clearly this is changing

2. Skills in building and associated trades sectors. There's a large percentage who are not skilled enough to build with new methods / materials. There's an awful lot that is not regulated effectively enough i.e. checks made that what is being built meets the specifications / what was submitted in the plans. I realise that this will vary from project to project but domestic building / small works is full of holes - work is carried out often by unqualified people and the local building regs inspector easy to distract from things that you don't want them to see....just my experience.

3. The UK is "damp" doesn't suit wooden buildings.......I've seen that one stated quite a lot.....baffling really

4. Wooden Buildings are prone to insect infestation (wood boring etc etc)

5. We like the look of brick!

There's plenty of "block based" alternatives that are way more efficient that the standard clay brick outer/ lightweight block inner cavity wall. I just don't see them being used often in the U.K.

Haych

Philly_Q said:

Haych said:

Anyway, back to my question.  I used to date a girl who lived in a new, modern and eco-friendly apartment complex.  The heating and hot water for the complex was provided by a geothermal bore hole - an endless supply of heating and hot water available and all paid for within the monthly rent payment.  Nobody worried about the cost of running a bath, washing the dishes or staying warm during the winter - it was toasty warm too, not just a case of putting the heating on to take the chill off, it was proper cosy warm with not a boiler in sight.

Presumably that wasn't in the UK?  From a British perspective it sounds like science fiction.

It was very much in the UK.

boogieman

exocet said:

hywelg said:

My Baxi is 27 years old and due for replacement but it works so I'm sticking with it until the picture is clearer regarding new tech. 

I would spend on a ground source heat pump but for the problem that I live in a splendid Edwardian house with original sash windows, stained glass, cavity walls and elaborate cornice to the main rooms. So indeed deep borehole ground source but that is a hell of a long way off yet.

So insulating is problematic. All the uneducated plebs say of course you can;

• Fit new double glazed sash windows.
• Retain your stained glass
• Fit cavity wall insulation
• Insulate your external walls internally or externally.

To which I say

• Yes there are good versions that look good from the outside but they are hellish expensive approx £1.5k per sash and I have 16 of them to replace . And they look crap on the inside because the frames are so deep there's no room for a staff bead on the inside.
• If you encapsulate your stained glass you lose much of its character
• Cavity wall insulation with old porous brick work is well known to produce damp problems.
• Cost to fit insulation is one thing, the add on cost to replicate cornice, dado rail, skirting boards dwarfs it. No way will I fit external insulation over beautiful old narrow jointed aged brickwork.
• Besides why would I want to insulate my bedrooms when we sleep with the window open 10 months of the year. Not allowed to miss bits out and still comply.

I often end up raging when I hear some of the tosh that comes out of eco proponents. 

I very much agree with your observations, which also apply to a significant %age of UK housing stock.

I very much doubt that you'll see Gas Boilers being banned within your lifetime - the sale of gas boilers "yes" but the use of gas boilers "no".

The issue will be simply one of heating costs which are going to become astronomical - the home owner will have to make a choice - stay as they are and pay the bills or accept colder houses. 

The govt are saying they’ll ban the installation of gas boilers in new builds from 2030. So far there’s no suggestion that you can’t install, use or replace one in an existing property. They’ll be around for a few decades I think. I even heard an MP on the radio the other day hemming and hawing and saying that the 2030 deadline is actually only a suggestion and might not be enforced.  

darthed1981

Haych said:

The technology is available, madness that we don't use it.  Of course, somebody wants paying, investors and shareholders need their dividend.

So the real answer to why none of this happens is that the capitalist model is the driver.  The capitalist model is broken and if we keep putting the cart before the horse and profit before progress, progress will be dismally slow.

While a lot of it is this, for sure, the harsh reality right now is that despite the rhetoric, climate change is not considered "today's problem" - 370 billion would go an extremely long way towards solving the climate change problem in Britain but can't be found, for Covid, found very quickly indeed... because it was today's emergency.

Currently Bojo is a leading part of one of the biggest ever lies told to the UK, and sadly my children will be my age before anyone actually finds out... that we can swap everything one-for-one for a cleaner version and everything will be fine.  It's what people want to hear, but its bollocks.

It will not be possible to continue our lives as they are now, and effectively address climate change.

We can't all swap the four cars outside our houses for four electric cars and solve the problem - it needs to be one car or none - can you imagine giving up that freedom?  No, me neither, so we lie about it.

To enable anyone giving up their cars, public transport needs to be massively improved, there are no real plans to do this, and building one measly high-speed line is costing 107 billion fucking quid!

We can't all fly long-haul several times a year and solve the problem - in reality, aviation needs to be massively curtailed, globally -  can you imagine everyone giving up that freedom?  No, me neither, so we lie about it.

Simply building off-shore wind farms around the whole country does not solve the energy crisis, we can't use coal or oil or gas, we can't use nuclear (we simply lack the expertise), there is no solution on the table except a drastic cut in consumption, BUT... we are all being asked to switch to electric heating and electric cars... it simply doesn't add up...

Supermarkets don't need to cut using single use plastics... they need to completely eliminate them, throughout the supply chain... etc. etc.

How to maintain some level of living close to what we have now while keeping the climate change under control is a massive challenge, massive, the biggest our civilisation has ever faced.

...and in the background, China, India and Brazil are basically queueing up saying "give us your money or we will burn everything in site until we are as rich as you"... to which we are saying piss off.

There is hope, in technology and in a growing support for change globally, but again, unless we see this as a World War 2 level emergency, and spend and change accordingly... we are proper fucked.

rlw

hywelg said:

My Baxi is 27 years old and due for replacement but it works so I'm sticking with it until the picture is clearer regarding new tech. 

I would spend on a ground source heat pump but for the problem that I live in a splendid Edwardian house with original sash windows, stained glass, cavity walls and elaborate cornice to the main rooms. So indeed deep borehole ground source but that is a hell of a long way off yet.

So insulating is problematic. All the uneducated plebs say of course you can;

• Fit new double glazed sash windows.
• Retain your stained glass
• Fit cavity wall insulation
• Insulate your external walls internally or externally.

To which I say

• Yes there are good versions that look good from the outside but they are hellish expensive approx £1.5k per sash and I have 16 of them to replace . And they look crap on the inside because the frames are so deep there's no room for a staff bead on the inside.
• If you encapsulate your stained glass you lose much of its character
• Cavity wall insulation with old porous brick work is well known to produce damp problems.
• Cost to fit insulation is one thing, the add on cost to replicate cornice, dado rail, skirting boards dwarfs it. No way will I fit external insulation over beautiful old narrow jointed aged brickwork.
• Besides why would I want to insulate my bedrooms when we sleep with the window open 10 months of the year. Not allowed to miss bits out and still comply.

I often end up raging when I hear some of the tosh that comes out of eco proponents. 

Re the windows, we fitted new wood double glazed sash windows into the original boxes and you cannot tell the difference from more than about two metres.

And very very effective they are too.  The house is soooo much warmer as they don't act like effing big radiators in reverse and they keep all the draughts out.

Philly_Q

Haych said:

Philly_Q said:

Haych said:

Anyway, back to my question.  I used to date a girl who lived in a new, modern and eco-friendly apartment complex.  The heating and hot water for the complex was provided by a geothermal bore hole - an endless supply of heating and hot water available and all paid for within the monthly rent payment.  Nobody worried about the cost of running a bath, washing the dishes or staying warm during the winter - it was toasty warm too, not just a case of putting the heating on to take the chill off, it was proper cosy warm with not a boiler in sight.

Presumably that wasn't in the UK?  From a British perspective it sounds like science fiction.

It was very much in the UK.

Wow awarded. I'm shocked.

hywelg

rlw said:

hywelg said:

My Baxi is 27 years old and due for replacement but it works so I'm sticking with it until the picture is clearer regarding new tech. 

I would spend on a ground source heat pump but for the problem that I live in a splendid Edwardian house with original sash windows, stained glass, cavity walls and elaborate cornice to the main rooms. So indeed deep borehole ground source but that is a hell of a long way off yet.

So insulating is problematic. All the uneducated plebs say of course you can;

• Fit new double glazed sash windows.
• Retain your stained glass
• Fit cavity wall insulation
• Insulate your external walls internally or externally.

To which I say

• Yes there are good versions that look good from the outside but they are hellish expensive approx £1.5k per sash and I have 16 of them to replace . And they look crap on the inside because the frames are so deep there's no room for a staff bead on the inside.
• If you encapsulate your stained glass you lose much of its character
• Cavity wall insulation with old porous brick work is well known to produce damp problems.
• Cost to fit insulation is one thing, the add on cost to replicate cornice, dado rail, skirting boards dwarfs it. No way will I fit external insulation over beautiful old narrow jointed aged brickwork.
• Besides why would I want to insulate my bedrooms when we sleep with the window open 10 months of the year. Not allowed to miss bits out and still comply.

I often end up raging when I hear some of the tosh that comes out of eco proponents. 

Re the windows, we fitted new wood double glazed sash windows into the original boxes and you cannot tell the difference from more than about two metres.

And very very effective they are too.  The house is soooo much warmer as they don't act like effing big radiators in reverse and they keep all the draughts out.

I do know about the possibilities , I am in a related trade. Unfortunately slimline double glazed units dont have a good reliability record. And the margin (the bit around the edge that you have to hide in the rebate) is a bit big still requiring the lovely slim ovolo moulding of Victorian windows to be changed to bigger versions. And plant on glazing bars rather than divided glazing. 

Them there is the Pilkingtons Spacia glass, ideal it would seem apart from the sealing plug, but has to be specially ordered from Japan!! Horrendous cost. 

And the glass in most of my windows is that lovely wobbly, distorting drawn glass common 100 years ago. Replacing that adds at least £200 to the cost of a window. 

My solution is currently a very nice selection of thick warm wool jumpers. 

bobblehat

Philly_Q said:

Haych said:

Philly_Q said:

Haych said:

Anyway, back to my question.  I used to date a girl who lived in a new, modern and eco-friendly apartment complex.  The heating and hot water for the complex was provided by a geothermal bore hole - an endless supply of heating and hot water available and all paid for within the monthly rent payment.  Nobody worried about the cost of running a bath, washing the dishes or staying warm during the winter - it was toasty warm too, not just a case of putting the heating on to take the chill off, it was proper cosy warm with not a boiler in sight.

Presumably that wasn't in the UK?  From a British perspective it sounds like science fiction.

It was very much in the UK.

Wow awarded. I'm shocked.

There are plenty of these systems in the UK and likely to be a lot more. However there will still be a great big heat pump on the end of that magical bore hole that requires a lot of electricity. They are slightly more efficient than Airsource heat pumps but the costs associated with the bore holes or ground arrays often make them unviable.

Rich210

3 hours later the boiler is installed and the water is running hot!

Kittyfrisk

Some like it hot...

Dominic

Haych said:

I don't understand the British love affair with building houses from bricks and mortar.  Things have come a long way, true, and modern homes are far more thermally efficient than older housing stock, but when you compare UK homes to those being built in other parts of the world we're still in the dark ages.

Scandinavia build much more thermally efficient homes and from renewable sources to boot.  And they build them far faster!  Why do we not follow their lead instead of insisting we use bricks and mortar?  I'm sure much of it is to do with council planning committees having their toes stepped on and not wanting a foreign looking building in their community.

Also, why are we not investing in geothermal technology?  I'm sure the answer will be the associated price tag - the main reason why COP26 is a complete waste of time, effort and energy - while ever profit making industry is responsible for ushering in change, that change will progress very slowly and very little.  If we can detach the price tag then real change might happen - oh, look, a unicorn!

Anyway, back to my question.  I used to date a girl who lived in a new, modern and eco-friendly apartment complex.  The heating and hot water for the complex was provided by a geothermal bore hole - an endless supply of heating and hot water available and all paid for within the monthly rent payment.  Nobody worried about the cost of running a bath, washing the dishes or staying warm during the winter - it was toasty warm too, not just a case of putting the heating on to take the chill off, it was proper cosy warm with not a boiler in sight.

The technology is available, madness that we don't use it.  Of course, somebody wants paying, investors and shareholders need their dividend.

So the real answer to why none of this happens is that the capitalist model is the driver.  The capitalist model is broken and if we keep putting the cart before the horse and profit before progress, progress will be dismally slow.

Yeah,yeah yeah,
but what about the ladyfriend ........was she a goer ?

Haych

Dominic said:

Yeah,yeah yeah,
but what about the ladyfriend ........was she a goer ?

Depends what you mean by a goer. She was a nice girl. I messed up there, as I have so many times if life. She’s a regret I carry around with me. 

chillidoggy

Jalapeno said:

Haych said:

spark240 said:

Shouldn't we be considering alternatives nowadays ?

All electric boilers etc?

When we've all switched over to electric cars and electric heating, will the grid be able to cope with the massive surge in demand?

Knowing Blighty we'll import extra capacity from other countries <insert eyeroll here>t

It can't cope now, hence we're importing power from France etc.  (France has >50 nuclear reactors, so tons of spare capacity) - his is what we need to get going with Channel Islands first !

From the BBC - "France has pledged to reduce its reliance on nuclear power by shutting down 12 nuclear reactors by 2035."

rlw

hywelg said:

rlw said:

hywelg said:

My Baxi is 27 years old and due for replacement but it works so I'm sticking with it until the picture is clearer regarding new tech. 

I would spend on a ground source heat pump but for the problem that I live in a splendid Edwardian house with original sash windows, stained glass, cavity walls and elaborate cornice to the main rooms. So indeed deep borehole ground source but that is a hell of a long way off yet.

So insulating is problematic. All the uneducated plebs say of course you can;

• Fit new double glazed sash windows.
• Retain your stained glass
• Fit cavity wall insulation
• Insulate your external walls internally or externally.

To which I say

• Yes there are good versions that look good from the outside but they are hellish expensive approx £1.5k per sash and I have 16 of them to replace . And they look crap on the inside because the frames are so deep there's no room for a staff bead on the inside.
• If you encapsulate your stained glass you lose much of its character
• Cavity wall insulation with old porous brick work is well known to produce damp problems.
• Cost to fit insulation is one thing, the add on cost to replicate cornice, dado rail, skirting boards dwarfs it. No way will I fit external insulation over beautiful old narrow jointed aged brickwork.
• Besides why would I want to insulate my bedrooms when we sleep with the window open 10 months of the year. Not allowed to miss bits out and still comply.

I often end up raging when I hear some of the tosh that comes out of eco proponents. 

Re the windows, we fitted new wood double glazed sash windows into the original boxes and you cannot tell the difference from more than about two metres.

And very very effective they are too.  The house is soooo much warmer as they don't act like effing big radiators in reverse and they keep all the draughts out.

I do know about the possibilities , I am in a related trade. Unfortunately slimline double glazed units dont have a good reliability record. And the margin (the bit around the edge that you have to hide in the rebate) is a bit big still requiring the lovely slim ovolo moulding of Victorian windows to be changed to bigger versions. And plant on glazing bars rather than divided glazing. 

Them there is the Pilkingtons Spacia glass, ideal it would seem apart from the sealing plug, but has to be specially ordered from Japan!! Horrendous cost. 

And the glass in most of my windows is that lovely wobbly, distorting drawn glass common 100 years ago. Replacing that adds at least £200 to the cost of a window. 

My solution is currently a very nice selection of thick warm wool jumpers. 

This winter I have decided to donate all my thick warm wool jumpers to charity:)

Rich210

Just a note... When getting a combi boiler it's probably a good idea to get a weather compensation sensor with it! I wish I did ! Lots on line about them, but I think they are worth especially if you want it run as efficiently as possible in your home.