Harley Benton guitars

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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11411
    edited April 2022
    They are built to a price.  My daughter spent her Christmas money on a 22" scale HB Strat copy aimed at kids 3 or 4 years back.  That was somewhere in the region of £80.  It's a lot better than some other kids guitars that I've seen, but it did have one or two minor issues, and it's nowhere near as good as my Fenders, or even some Squiers I have seen.   The higher end Squiers are well over £200 these days though.

    Even with the grown up HBs, there are compromises to get to the price point they have.  They are not advertising high end components like CTS pots.  There are complaints about the fret work on some of the reviews on Thomann.  Doing frets well is very labour intensive, and they will do them to be "good enough".  The wood will be bought in bulk at low prices by the pallet load.  It's not going to have the same care in selecting it that a high end small builder will give it.  You might get lucky and get a really nice piece of wood, but you might not.

    There are savings from the direct distribution model, and you will pay extra for a "name" brand.  That means a £200 HB will probably compare well to a £400 guitar from a name brand, possibly even with a £600 guitar.  However, 90% of them are not going to compare well when up against a high end guitar, even if pickups and components are upgraded. 
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  • robertyroberty Frets: 10893
    Bigsby said:
    CE1 said:
    If glue sounded as good as wood, they'd make the whole guitar out of it.

    That assumes that buyers ONLY buy based on tone. Makers have tried guitars made from carbon, resin and other materials but us guitar players are not particularly adventurous in our buying habits it seems. If you look on here how many guitars are strats, Teles, LPs, SGs compared to a thousand other shapes it shows just how conservative we all are. As for whether a tiny extra layer of glue could make a difference, I highly doubt it. How many people go for unpainted guitars? That is just another layer of unnecessary gloop but you never hear anyone saying it affects tone. Many (most?) guitar bodies are made from more than one piece of wood so glue is a fact of life anyway.
    The reality is that quality of construction and components are the key elements. 
    Billy Corgan does:-)
    IIRC, he's talking about paint colour, not the paint itself. Staining the wood would produce the same results. And he's not entirely wrong either. Lots of things influence what you hear [the perception of 'tone'] including what you're seeing, what expectations you have, your mood, prior experiences, but glue in the guitars construction? Not so much, unless it impacts your beliefs and expectations... :)  Then the effect may be pronounced.

    If you wish to perceive something independently of other factors, you have to eliminate the other factors as much as possible (e.g. blind testing), but there are limits to that.
    Cognitive bias in audio is very real, and the cause of some of the most vicious and bloody debates on the whole internet
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  • SnagsSnags Frets: 5325
    bertie said:
    H-B/Thomann manage to deliver at lower price points by cutting out the middle men. 
    ...that's ONE reason why they are cheaper yes.

    There are others...

    Nobody pays for the name "Harley Benton" on a headstock, people are willing to pay for the Gibson/Fender name and so on, which particularly those two companies make much hay out of.
    are you really telling me that an HB is equally as good as a USA Gibson/Fender, and its only the name on the headstock that is the difference ? 


    I think the point being made is that "brand" is also a cost factor in and of itself. A Gibson will cost more because it's a Gibson. A part of what you're paying for is the name on the headstock. Not the only thing, but hypothetically if Gibson made two identical* guitars in the same factory and sold one as Gibson and the other as Jiblass and no-one knew the Jiblass was really a Gibson, you'd be able to charge more for the Gibson. Because brand.

    So there will be other factors: component cost, quality, labour cost, etc. but one of the line items in the final price is "will people pay an extra few quid because of the sticker".

    *As identical as one can, obviously.
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  • bertiebertie Frets: 13564
    Snags said:

    I think the point being made is that "brand" is also a cost factor in and of itself. A Gibson will cost more because it's a Gibson. A part of what you're paying for is the name on the headstock. Not the only thing, but hypothetically if Gibson made two identical* guitars in the same factory and sold one as Gibson and the other as Jiblass and no-one knew the Jiblass was really a Gibson, you'd be able to charge more for the Gibson. Because brand.

    ok, point taken - didnt initially come across (to me) like that, but sure agreed :)
    just because you don't, doesn't mean you can't
     just because you do, doesn't mean you should.
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11788
    H-B favours whatever they believe will sell this quarter. 

    Define "better top". Attractive grain has no bearing whatsoever on tone. 

    If a top consists of a 1.5mm veneer over plain looking solid wood, that is another layer of glue in the construction that the instrument might function better without. If glue sounded as good as wood, they'd make the whole guitar out of it.

    Their high end guitars seem to be targeting the market for people who like good guitars for not too much money with no brand snobbery.
    H-B/Thomann manage to deliver at lower price points by cutting out the middle men. 
    But PRS and Gibson glue a separate "top" piece of wood onto their guitars too 
    and AFAIK glue on veneer for their cheaper versions
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11788
    bertie said:
    Their high end guitars seem to be targeting the market for people who like good guitars for not too much money with no brand snobbery.
    H-B/Thomann manage to deliver at lower price points by cutting out the middle men. 
    ...that's ONE reason why they are cheaper yes.

    There are others...

    Nobody pays for the name "Harley Benton" on a headstock, people are willing to pay for the Gibson/Fender name and so on, which particularly those two companies make much hay out of.
    are you really telling me that an HB is equally as good as a USA Gibson/Fender, and its only the name on the headstock that is the difference ? 

    Ive had 1 HB,  it was good, yes  -  for the money - but reality check,  its not as good as a "Fender/Gibson/insert name of choice"

    Ive had Tokais that were fantastic,  "better" than an Epi, sure but as good as my  GIbbo LP ?   no. 

    Their "low end" is remarkably good value  -but so are a lot of other "buy it in from the far east and put our name on it" brands  simply because the QC has improved  100 fold in recent years.    20 or even 30 years ago, no one would mention MIK/MIC Squiers with any reverence, but reality they have become great VFM guitars.  

    I also direct you to the pic of the broken Epi neck/headstock what was posted recently.   I would imagine there might be some similarity 
    I just got an HB 550 plus, I'd say it was similar quality to the Gibson Les Paul and 335 I owned
    Thomann do a wide range of prices, the better ones are very impressive: SC550, Amarok, Fusion
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 11669
    Snags said:
    bertie said:
    H-B/Thomann manage to deliver at lower price points by cutting out the middle men. 
    ...that's ONE reason why they are cheaper yes.

    There are others...

    Nobody pays for the name "Harley Benton" on a headstock, people are willing to pay for the Gibson/Fender name and so on, which particularly those two companies make much hay out of.
    are you really telling me that an HB is equally as good as a USA Gibson/Fender, and its only the name on the headstock that is the difference ? 


    I think the point being made is that "brand" is also a cost factor in and of itself. A Gibson will cost more because it's a Gibson. A part of what you're paying for is the name on the headstock. Not the only thing, but hypothetically if Gibson made two identical* guitars in the same factory and sold one as Gibson and the other as Jiblass and no-one knew the Jiblass was really a Gibson, you'd be able to charge more for the Gibson. Because brand.

    So there will be other factors: component cost, quality, labour cost, etc. but one of the line items in the final price is "will people pay an extra few quid because of the sticker".

    *As identical as one can, obviously.
    Thanks @Snags yes, exactly.
    We have to be so very careful, what we believe in...
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  • SnagsSnags Frets: 5325
    bertie said:
    Snags said:

    I think the point being made is that "brand" is also a cost factor in and of itself. A Gibson will cost more because it's a Gibson. A part of what you're paying for is the name on the headstock. Not the only thing, but hypothetically if Gibson made two identical* guitars in the same factory and sold one as Gibson and the other as Jiblass and no-one knew the Jiblass was really a Gibson, you'd be able to charge more for the Gibson. Because brand.

    ok, point taken - didnt initially come across (to me) like that, but sure agreed :)

    I mean, obviously if you change the pickups as well ... ;)
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11411
    edited April 2022
    bertie said:
    Their high end guitars seem to be targeting the market for people who like good guitars for not too much money with no brand snobbery.
    H-B/Thomann manage to deliver at lower price points by cutting out the middle men. 
    ...that's ONE reason why they are cheaper yes.

    There are others...

    Nobody pays for the name "Harley Benton" on a headstock, people are willing to pay for the Gibson/Fender name and so on, which particularly those two companies make much hay out of.
    are you really telling me that an HB is equally as good as a USA Gibson/Fender, and its only the name on the headstock that is the difference ? 

    Ive had 1 HB,  it was good, yes  -  for the money - but reality check,  its not as good as a "Fender/Gibson/insert name of choice"

    Ive had Tokais that were fantastic,  "better" than an Epi, sure but as good as my  GIbbo LP ?   no. 

    Their "low end" is remarkably good value  -but so are a lot of other "buy it in from the far east and put our name on it" brands  simply because the QC has improved  100 fold in recent years.    20 or even 30 years ago, no one would mention MIK/MIC Squiers with any reverence, but reality they have become great VFM guitars.  

    I also direct you to the pic of the broken Epi neck/headstock what was posted recently.   I would imagine there might be some similarity 
    I just got an HB 550 plus, I'd say it was similar quality to the Gibson Les Paul and 335 I owned
    Thomann do a wide range of prices, the better ones are very impressive: SC550, Amarok, Fusion
    In my experience, Gibson semis aren't always great.  I've owned an ES-339 that had significant issues.  I still own an ES Les Paul that sounds and plays great since I got the dreadful factory cut nut sorted out, but has some cosmetic issues.  I bet the average HB leaves the factory with a much better cut nut than that one had.

    I've also played 335s that are distinctly underwhelming.  The first semi I bought was as a Korean Tokai 335 copy, and it sounded better than the 335 I tried it against in the shop.

    When Gibson get it right though, normally with the Custom Shop reissues, the results are spectacular.  The one I have now is one of the best guitars I've ever played.
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  • dazzer22dazzer22 Frets: 44
    bertie said:
    Their high end guitars seem to be targeting the market for people who like good guitars for not too much money with no brand snobbery.
    H-B/Thomann manage to deliver at lower price points by cutting out the middle men. 
    ...that's ONE reason why they are cheaper yes.

    There are others...

    Nobody pays for the name "Harley Benton" on a headstock, people are willing to pay for the Gibson/Fender name and so on, which particularly those two companies make much hay out of.
    are you really telling me that an HB is equally as good as a USA Gibson/Fender, and its only the name on the headstock that is the difference ? 

    Ive had 1 HB,  it was good, yes  -  for the money - but reality check,  its not as good as a "Fender/Gibson/insert name of choice"

    Ive had Tokais that were fantastic,  "better" than an Epi, sure but as good as my  GIbbo LP ?   no. 

    Their "low end" is remarkably good value  -but so are a lot of other "buy it in from the far east and put our name on it" brands  simply because the QC has improved  100 fold in recent years.    20 or even 30 years ago, no one would mention MIK/MIC Squiers with any reverence, but reality they have become great VFM guitars.  

    I also direct you to the pic of the broken Epi neck/headstock what was posted recently.   I would imagine there might be some similarity 
    I just got an HB 550 plus, I'd say it was similar quality to the Gibson Les Paul and 335 I owned
    Thomann do a wide range of prices, the better ones are very impressive: SC550, Amarok, Fusion

    I think with a Gibson you do pay for the name and higher wages for works mostly  and Prs are just a rip off,  I  do think the HB guitars are very close to the higher end market of guitars they totally kill Epip  ,   apart from that they have the better specs for sure ,  i mean  how many guitars have SS frets on them for a start and for the price its amazing ,  I have a Gibson and its a great guitar but my friend has a HB and after trying his i thought i would get one ,   It wont replace my Gibson i feel like i only use that for show and want to keep it looking good , but HB seem to offer great value for money that seems to win over the likes off Epip - Schecter  - prs se which are now looking way over priced when you compare  with HB  - 
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  • hollywoodroxhollywoodrox Frets: 4078
    I don’t think they’re biased when their biggest sellers are strats , tele’s and Gibson lookalikes 
      
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  • munckeemunckee Frets: 12253
    Snags said:
    bertie said:
    Snags said:

    I think the point being made is that "brand" is also a cost factor in and of itself. A Gibson will cost more because it's a Gibson. A part of what you're paying for is the name on the headstock. Not the only thing, but hypothetically if Gibson made two identical* guitars in the same factory and sold one as Gibson and the other as Jiblass and no-one knew the Jiblass was really a Gibson, you'd be able to charge more for the Gibson. Because brand.

    ok, point taken - didnt initially come across (to me) like that, but sure agreed :)

    I mean, obviously if you change the pickups as well ... ;)
    Then its better than a Gibson of course : )
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 11669
    munckee said:
    Snags said:
    bertie said:
    Snags said:

    I think the point being made is that "brand" is also a cost factor in and of itself. A Gibson will cost more because it's a Gibson. A part of what you're paying for is the name on the headstock. Not the only thing, but hypothetically if Gibson made two identical* guitars in the same factory and sold one as Gibson and the other as Jiblass and no-one knew the Jiblass was really a Gibson, you'd be able to charge more for the Gibson. Because brand.

    ok, point taken - didnt initially come across (to me) like that, but sure agreed :)

    I mean, obviously if you change the pickups as well ... ;)
    Then its better than a Gibson of course : )
    AS GOOD AS a Gibson, let's not over-state things ;)
    We have to be so very careful, what we believe in...
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  • bertiebertie Frets: 13564
    munckee said:
    Snags said:
    bertie said:
    Snags said:

    I think the point being made is that "brand" is also a cost factor in and of itself. A Gibson will cost more because it's a Gibson. A part of what you're paying for is the name on the headstock. Not the only thing, but hypothetically if Gibson made two identical* guitars in the same factory and sold one as Gibson and the other as Jiblass and no-one knew the Jiblass was really a Gibson, you'd be able to charge more for the Gibson. Because brand.

    ok, point taken - didnt initially come across (to me) like that, but sure agreed :)

    I mean, obviously if you change the pickups as well ... ;)
    Then its better than a Gibson of course : )
    AS GOOD AS a Gibson, let's not over-state things ;)
    touche 

    :) 
    just because you don't, doesn't mean you can't
     just because you do, doesn't mean you should.
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  • skullfunkerryskullfunkerry Frets: 4136
    edited April 2022
    Snags said:

    I think the point being made is that "brand" is also a cost factor in and of itself. A Gibson will cost more because it's a Gibson. A part of what you're paying for is the name on the headstock. Not the only thing, but hypothetically if Gibson made two identical* guitars in the same factory and sold one as Gibson and the other as Jiblass and no-one knew the Jiblass was really a Gibson, you'd be able to charge more for the Gibson. Because brand.

    So there will be other factors: component cost, quality, labour cost, etc. but one of the line items in the final price is "will people pay an extra few quid because of the sticker".

    *As identical as one can, obviously.
    Based on everything I've read over the last few years, two Gibsons are less likely to be identical than two guitars from most other brands
    Too much gain... is just about enough \m/

    I'm probably the only member of this forum mentioned by name in Whiskey in the Jar ;)

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  • GizmoGizmo Frets: 1072
    Any one got some "Sience" for this "Glue effects Ma Tone'z" thing? its pretty funny because the Carboard (and epoxy) Strat (check YT) well sounds like a strat as do all the other epoxy and 3d printed Strats...but i guess cardboard is made from wood right....FFS
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  • usedtobeusedtobe Frets: 3841
    Plenty of glue in 335s and similar.. 
     so if you fancy a reissue of a guitar they never made in a colour they never used then it probably isn't too overpriced.

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  • bertiebertie Frets: 13564
    be "interesting"  to see where/how they're made  - factory / worker conditions etc etc 
    just because you don't, doesn't mean you can't
     just because you do, doesn't mean you should.
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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 8599
    Gizmo said:
    Any one got some "Sience" for this "Glue effects Ma Tone'z" thing? its pretty funny because the Carboard (and epoxy) Strat (check YT) well sounds like a strat as do all the other epoxy and 3d printed Strats...but i guess cardboard is made from wood right....FFS
    You really need Unicorn glue to get an appreciable tonal improvement. 
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  • dazzer22dazzer22 Frets: 44
    bertie said:
    munckee said:
    Snags said:
    bertie said:
    Snags said:

    I think the point being made is that "brand" is also a cost factor in and of itself. A Gibson will cost more because it's a Gibson. A part of what you're paying for is the name on the headstock. Not the only thing, but hypothetically if Gibson made two identical* guitars in the same factory and sold one as Gibson and the other as Jiblass and no-one knew the Jiblass was really a Gibson, you'd be able to charge more for the Gibson. Because brand.

    ok, point taken - didnt initially come across (to me) like that, but sure agreed :)

    I mean, obviously if you change the pickups as well ... ;)
    Then its better than a Gibson of course : )
    AS GOOD AS a Gibson, let's not over-state things ;)
    touche 

    :) 
    There is a lot  truth In what you say the Gibson name but Gibson  are USA made which would mean the Jiblass would still be over priced compared to similar Guitars  from Asia ,    Another point would be a Gibson will hold more value on re sale if you was to sell it. I often think an Epip with Gibson Humbucker pickups in  is  close to a  Real Gibson . 
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