Gut shots of a Sire Larry Carlton S7

MentalSharps

A lot of great reviews, and overall positive sentiment around the Sire guitars, not much in the way of negatives when trawling through the youtube comments, seem to be pretty well regarded. But I think I remember reading some comments about these having the single coils overly bright because of 500k pots, and/or the treble bleed circuit.

Just wondering what people felt of these electronics, are they fairly solid - as in fine to just solder in new pickups, rather than upgrading them or modifying the wiring.

https://www.reddit.com/r/guitars/comments/roye1a/sire_larry_carlton_s7_gut_shot/

Philly_Q

It all looks neatly wired and soldered, and the pots and switch are decent quality. 

It's a double-wafer switch so there's obviously something complex going on with the wiring, probably involving splitting the humbucker, but I'm not clever enough to tell just by looking at it.

There are two resistors, which may be compensating for the 250k/500k thing, but again I'm not sure.

guitarjack66

I saw Phil McKnight review a guitar today,a 335 or Casino style and he said the necks were very slim. Not a fault for some but could be a deal breaker for others.

Sassafras

ICBM will be along to tell us it's a death-trap.
  

Philly_Q

Sassafras said:

ICBM will be along to tell us it's a death-trap.
  

But at least there's not much risk of a headstock break.

steamabacus

guitarjack66 said:

I saw Phil McKnight review a guitar today,a 335 or Casino style and he said the necks were very slim. Not a fault for some but could be a deal breaker for others.

Fron what I've seen, that's only the 335-style one - based on Larry Carlton's Gibson original. The other models are more conventional I believe.

Dave_Mc

Philly_Q said:

It all looks neatly wired and soldered, and the pots and switch are decent quality. 

It's a double-wafer switch so there's obviously something complex going on with the wiring, probably involving splitting the humbucker, but I'm not clever enough to tell just by looking at it.

There are two resistors, which may be compensating for the 250k/500k thing, but again I'm not sure.

Yeah I think so (the resistors, I mean). Not sure why they use two of them (most people seem to)- according to @ICBM ;;;;;;you can get away with using one. I also (again on ICBM's say-so) use another resistor and cap in series to mimic the different tone control value as well- you're getting into very minute differences there, but at the same time if you're doing it yourself you might as well, it's only another few pence for the components.

But if that's being done as stock from the factory, that's pretty darn good- I agree with you, the parts look pretty decent, and having the resistors stock is pretty good indeed- plenty of far more expensive guitars just plumb (plum? not sure   apparently I've never had to write that before!) don't bother.

EDIT: In response to @MentalSharps : I don't see any treble bleed there. You could add one if you like- it won't make it brighter at full volume, will just maintain highs when you roll the volume down. 

What I do see (and hopefully @ICBM will contradict me if I'm incorrect!), and which is very cool- I think they're using two different tone caps for the tone pot, presumably for the humbucker and single coil. I'm guessing that's why they need the super switch.

Although- I don't think they're compensating for the different tone pot value. Another thing you can do is just put the two different tone caps on a push-push (I've done that on a few guitars, when I thought they suited it and when I could be bothered!).

But certainly, as stock guitar wiring- especially on a fairly cheap guitar- pretty much top marks. Decent parts (I'm not sure who "Jin-Sung" are, but they look like decent, full-sized parts), and some very interesting wiring tricks that a lot of the more expensive manufacturers don't bother with.

twangydave

I have one of the white S7's from the very first run. It's a really good guitar, it plays well, stays in tune, it's nice and quiet, and the neck is comfy. I don't love the pickups for every day playing, they are bright and percussive, and have a kind of 80's hi-fi studio sound, that is a world away from the vintage strat sounds that most of us like. But it's great for recording little parts that lift tracks, and a secret weapon when a little fizz and bubble is needed. Every time I do play it, I'm left feeling that I should play it more, because it's a really good guitar by any metric. The fact that it cost me £400 brand new is pretty amazing when you see what things sell for these days.  

Funkfingers

Dave_Mc said:

What I do see … and which is very cool … they're using two different tone caps for the tone pot, presumably for the humbucker and single coil. I'm guessing that's why they need the super switch.

Correct.

The four pole superswitch devotes one pole to selecting the bridge and neck pickups. (Switch positions 1, 2, 4 and 5.) A second pole to selecting the centre pickup. (Switch positions 2, 3 and 4.) The third pole automates the humbucker coil split when the bridge and centre pickups are selected. The fourth pole is part of the tone control circuit, engaging different capacitor values, as appropriate.

guitarjack66

steamabacus said:

guitarjack66 said:

I saw Phil McKnight review a guitar today,a 335 or Casino style and he said the necks were very slim. Not a fault for some but could be a deal breaker for others.

Fron what I've seen, that's only the 335-style one - based on Larry Carlton's Gibson original. The other models are more conventional I believe.

Its a shame about the thin necks as the guitar looks fantastic.

PonchoGreg

That's much neater than a lot of MIM Fenders I've tinkered with... Also cloth push-back wire, nice.

I really want to try one of these... But the gloss fretboard kinda puts me off, which is a bit silly!

MentalSharps

twangydave said:

I have one of the white S7's from the very first run. It's a really good guitar, it plays well, stays in tune, it's nice and quiet, and the neck is comfy. I don't love the pickups for every day playing, they are bright and percussive, and have a kind of 80's hi-fi studio sound, that is a world away from the vintage strat sounds that most of us like. But it's great for recording little parts that lift tracks, and a secret weapon when a little fizz and bubble is needed. Every time I do play it, I'm left feeling that I should play it more, because it's a really good guitar by any metric. The fact that it cost me £400 brand new is pretty amazing when you see what things sell for these days.  

How do they sound with the tone knob lowered?

The S7 is currently on sale for £399 at Andertons, so I could grab a set of boutique pickups and it still comes in a little cheaper than a Fender player MIM which is the other option.

Funkfingers said:

Dave_Mc said:

What I do see … and which is very cool … they're using two different tone caps for the tone pot, presumably for the humbucker and single coil. I'm guessing that's why they need the super switch.

Thanks for confirming that and all the info guys. Sounds pretty good, I don't think I'd bother with a new wiring harness for this then.

I tried to research Jin Sung pots and didn't much specifics, although apparently they are used on PRS S2 and MIM Fenders. It did take me down an interesting rabbit hole of looking at the Korean version of the Sire website which has some additional info not on any of the other regional sites or included in any of the Sire related videos by YouTubers. Seems to confirm the info in the first Anderton's video that Sire do indeed own their own factory, and a few other interesting tidbits.

The part about cutting out the middle men to keep the margins low is interesting also. I asked a retailer if they could select me a well bookmatched top, since they were trying to offer me a goodwill gesture for a big customer service problem, but they said they couldn't open the boxes. I wonder if that's related to the deal Sire have with retailers, not to do any QC check but just send the guitars on, maybe for lower margin? Or is that just standard large guitar retailer / "box shifter" practice.

MentalSharps

Translated with google translate:

Company Story

To talk about the beginning of the SIRE guitar, we have to go back 16 years. SIRE was the name of our band when we were young. Joe playing the drums, June playing the guitar, And it was a band of dreamers who played three people like me, the bass player, Kyle. Joe and June are still in charge of the SIRE guitar with me. Our story is more like a novel than a novel. From now on, I will tell you that novel-like story.

First Guitar Shop When we were in a band called SIRE, we were students, so we didn't have much money. A good instrument was too expensive to afford, so I had a hard time finding an EMG pickup and made a few guitars. Relying on books, I made my own guitar all night long. It was a band playing on their own instruments. I started making guitars in earnest when musicians around me bought the instruments I made experimentally. In May 1998, following the advice of a senior, I set up a company in my basement warehouse and started selling guitars only online. After that, time passed and we became Korea's No. 1 guitar company after 10 years of founding, and we were full of confidence. At the time, we had nothing to be rough about. So it was very easy to decide. "There are no more rivals in Korea, so let's go to the global market now!!!" But the walls of the world market were too high. Distributors in the United States, Europe and Japan Regarding price and quality, they called Amazing, but they offered really ridiculous conditions. Even now When I think back on that time, I get very angry. "The instrument is great, but you can't start trading..." Their reason was this. "No one wants to buy a brand that originated in Korea." "There is no chance of winning unless a world-famous musician participates as an Ender."

Life Lessons Until then, I naively thought that good quality at a good price would work anywhere in the world. That was a really stupid idea. At that time, I was really mad, and from then on, there was something about the way musical instruments were distributed. I started thinking differently. So we felt the urge to get revenge on those big retailers for disappointing us. But thankfully this case is, looking back now, the experience at that time was not in the form of enjoying most of the benefits of major distributors in the musical instrument industry. It gave me the opportunity to develop the concept of wanting to create a brand that benefits ordinary performers. At that time, three things were firmly decided in my heart. 1. Let's create a brand that benefits ordinary players!! 2. Let's establish a new brand guitar company in America!! 3. Let's find a world-class performer who understands what I mean!! After that decision, we established SIRE Guitar in the United States, and established a special guitar factory that was in the world only for SIRE. And we met Uncle Marcus and we were delighted that we were all thinking the same thing, and we prepared for the launch of the SIRE guitar in earnest. However, Uncle Marcus was so picky that we had to prepare for two more years, and now we are finally ready to start "Sire Revolution".

Oh! Marcus Miller! Marcus Miller was completely different! From the beginning of the thought, he was really different from ordinary people. I had a dimensional idea. That's why I love and respect him. I say to everyone, "Let's bring the benefits of the musical instrument industry back to the average player." When I did, others treated me like a dreamer. But Uncle Marcus really listened to me. "Oh my god!!! Marcus joins my thoughts!" We got along like a decalcomanie, and despite my poor guarantee, he rather than I participated in this SIRE REVOLUTION with more affection. More than i thought possible. He offers a low price and constantly insists that the benefits go to ordinary musicians. He even got me into trouble by insisting... Tuning the sound also took nearly two years. He was a true perfectionist. "I wish the middle would be a little more fat", "lower range sharper" After all, he really pursued perfection over perfection. From choosing the grade of wood to the By the time of the test, he had been more crazy about this project than us, despite his busy schedule. It seemed. To define him in one word, he is a Justice guy. The best players in the ranks Yes. I really respect him!

MentalSharps

Sire Revolution

CEO Kyle

My name is Kyle. The CEO of SIRE Guitar and a dreamer who dreams of "Sire Revolution"! Height: 181cm / Weight: 66Kg Face: Actually, he's not as handsome as the flower the artist drew. Character: An adolescent boy who still enjoys daydreaming and quietly walks to pursue his dream somewhere. Occupation: Of course a revolutionary. It's a bit embarrassing because it looks grandiose, but I'm trying to push ahead with "Sire Revolution".

Sire Revolution The word "Sire Revolution" is a bit grandiose, even in my opinion. It's like an old-fashioned word I hesitated a bit, but decided to use it because it was the most appropriate word. Please understand even if it is a little uncomfortable.

What is "Sire Revolution"? It is to share the benefits of the technology of the musical instrument industry developed through automation and large-scale with ordinary players. It is not right that large distribution companies or large guitar brands take the benefits of the advanced musical instrument industry. Returning to normal players. This is "Sire Revolution". The world's first interactive way to create even product planning and price structure with ordinary players To create a brand of communication structure instruments. This is "Sire Revolution".

Professional Quality at Affordable Prices To summarize the specific benefits you will get from "Sire Revolution" in one sentence: "Professional quality at a crazy price" is. Anyone can easily find out by looking at the price, specifications, and quality of SIRE products. This is truly a revolution. Wouldn't it be like a revolution if you could buy a quality bass guitar for $400-500 that you have to pay for over $1500? It was also a bass guitar released under his name after two years of research with Marcus Miller, a world-class bass player. It's not just the bass. Now you can buy a complete all-solid acoustic guitar that should cost over $1000 for $300.

A - We have our own state-of-the-art factory. It is a state-of-the-art factory that has achieved large-scale and automation produces. In fact, you may be proud of your own guitars, but guitars from different brands are made in that same factory. You should be aware that there may be. In particular, in the case of major brands, most of the products in the mid-range price range are similar. OEM other factories produce their products. However, SIRE manufactures all its products exclusively at SIRE Factory. We are in mass production We have many years of know-how. With SIRE's unique experience and our own special production technology, the best quality in the same price range. We can produce guitars.

B - We do not produce many kinds of musical instruments. This is to maximize production efficiency.

C - We tune and produce major parts such as pickups, electronic parts, and hardware in-house. We do not pay royalties to any pickup or electronics companies.

D - Minimize advertising. We don't pay big bucks for magazines or websites or famous musicians. Over time, naturally, with the help of the Sire family, I believe it will be known worldwide. We don't even put up booths at the world's top three musical instrument shows. All these promotional expenses are Because it's going back to the price of the instrument to you.

E - The distribution stage is minimized. We cut costs by minimizing the steps of distribution. For example, in the US and China, SIRE makes it and supplies it to you right away. Normal distribution stage: EM Factory [Margin] - Major brand [Margin] - Distributor [Margin] - Musical Instrument Store [Margin] - You Our Distribution Stage: SIRE - You Our partners in Europe and Japan are grateful companies that agreed to SIRE's low margin policy. That's why you can get SIRE products at current prices.

Philly_Q

When they said there was going to be advertising on the forum I didn't think it would be entire threads.

BillDL

I haven't read the full story, but going by the first set of pastel-shaded pictures I guessed it was about The Famous Five doing a worldwide tour of guitar factories and shops 

CavemanGrogg

I wasn't impressed by what I saw of them, granted this was ten years ago, and not a Strat clone, it was a Sire clone of a White Falcon/Country Gentleman, and it was shockinly bad, right down to the orange finish.

CE1

Take a lot at them now, I have an L7 and the quality for the money is stunning. They don’t sound as nice as a £4K Gibson, but they are only a few hundred quid. I don’t think any other low/medium budget guitars on sale at the moment compare quality and sound wise.

MentalSharps

Philly_Q said:

When they said there was going to be advertising on the forum I didn't think it would be entire threads.

Understandable sentiment, but in this case that's a cynical take. I am just about as cynical as it gets when it comes to the subject of the social media/advertising/influencer phenomenon, downright dystopian even

I posted it becaue It's interesting info in the sense that very little is known about Sire, since none of that info exists in English, other than the first Anderton's video which briefly paraphrases a few things and also sounds made up / embellished marketing from Andertons for a product line they're featuring.

Either that or YouTubers reviewing the guitar with little or no accurate context or info about the company. 

So overall the only info available about sire or the guitars is lots of hype, or the occasional bit of cynicism that the hype is artificial.

I think I've read every single discussion on all the major forums, and seen almost every YouTube video and read the comments at this stage! I tend to research deeply before purchasing and definitely don't want to overpay on something that could just be a Harley Benton with a smart "word of mouth" Andertons / influencer campaign.

At the same time, don't want to overpay for a Fender MIM + luthier work to get a high quality instrument for an affordable price which seems to be the best bang for buck otherwise, or overpay for a PRS SE Silver Sky if a better / equivalent option exists.

From what I can tell so far, it does actually seem like Sire are successfully moving the price point of what constitutes a "mid-range" guitar down a few hundred quid to the top end of "affordable guitar". Maybe I don't know enough about guitars yet but it does seem to me that when you dig, many of the similar priced guitars are manufactured by the same companies and just different rebrandings and slight feature variations.

CasperCaster

Just had a v.quick look at the gut shots - I'll take a longer look later, and possibly draw that out as there are a couple of neat tricks there. The tone caps look to be wired in series such that both are in circuit for the bridge pickup (lower total cap value as series caps add fractionally, not simply) and only one for the single coils. So e.g. two 47nF caps would give you 23.5nF for the humbucker and 47nF for the singles. Clearly also an auto-split for the humbucker (green split, red hot). More difficult to see where the resistors are at the switch end, but one will be for the volume and presumably the other for the tone such that humbucker sees 500K and singles see approx 250K for both pots. I'd guess the switch is far Eastern but looks decent - wafer material looks very much like that used in the Duesenberg switches, which are pretty good.

EDIT: the two resistors are actually only for the volume, not volume and tone - see later comment.

Dave_Mc

Funkfingers said:

Dave_Mc said:

What I do see … and which is very cool … they're using two different tone caps for the tone pot, presumably for the humbucker and single coil. I'm guessing that's why they need the super switch.

Correct.

The four pole superswitch devotes one pole to selecting the bridge and neck pickups. (Switch positions 1, 2, 4 and 5.) A second pole to selecting the centre pickup. (Switch positions 2, 3 and 4.) The third pole automates the humbucker coil split when the bridge and centre pickups are selected. The fourth pole is part of the tone control circuit, engaging different capacitor values, as appropriate.

Thanks

CasperCaster said:

Just had a v.quick look at the gut shots - I'll take a longer look later, and possibly draw that out as there are a couple of neat tricks there. The tone caps look to be wired in series such that both are in circuit for the bridge pickup (lower total cap value as series caps add fractionally, not simply) and only one for the single coils. So e.g. two 47nF caps would give you 23.5nF for the humbucker and 47nF for the singles. Clearly also an auto-split for the humbucker (green split, red hot). More difficult to see where the resistors are at the switch end, but one will be for the volume and presumably the other for the tone such that humbucker sees 500K and singles see approx 250K for both pots. I'd guess the switch is far Eastern but looks decent - wafer material looks very much like that used in the Duesenberg switches, which are pretty good.

That's an interesting point about the resistors- I just assumed the resistors were for the single coils. If it is for the tone pot value as well, that's very cool- I honestly don't know, I've managed to avoid needing a superswitch- apart from the one which came stock in my Ibanez- so far!

That's a good call about the tone caps too, as you said, if you put them in series that would probably work as you said.