Vintage Amps - (why) are they 'better'?

impmann

EricTheWeary said:

richardhomer said:

Gassage said:

richardhomer said:

Almost no name players use vintage amps in anger. Hence, I’m not convinced they ‘are’ better.

- Gilmour
- Bonamassa
- Glenn Frey
- Deacon Frey
- SRV
- Felder
- Craig Ross
- Clapton
- May
- Gallagher (Rory or Noel!)
- Peter Buck
- Neil Young 
- Eric Johnson
- Reeves Gabrels

!!!!!

EC’s current amps are Dumble-built tweed twins, his previous ones were Fenders, built by John Suhr.

Can’t vouch for the rest (except perhaps Rory Gallagher, Glen Frey and SRV who’re using no amps) but a lot of players are using Two Rocks, Lazy Js, Matchless, Mesas, modern Marshalls, reissue Fenders, Tone Kings, etc.

Some of those were dead before their amps even became vintage! 

May was using custom built AC30s last time I looked. Gabrels usually tours with Audio Kitchen amps. 

Noel's stage HiWatt was custom built for him through Music Ground, IIRC...

LastMantra

It's mainly the good ones people like 
Although curiously not always. 

I'm not sure people's ears have changed that much over the years, what sounds good sounds good.

JJMan said:

BTW most components go out of tolerance so unless you can find exact replacements you're not going to "hear" how it used to sound back in it's hay-day 

That's probably true but then I rebuilt a WEM with all new components (except transformers, all but one, valves and PCB) and it sounded pretty darn close. Close enough for me anyway. I think one or two caps had a slightly different given value even.
It's maybe slightly quieter (and more reliable) if anything.

Gassage

richardhomer said:

Gassage said:

richardhomer said:

Almost no name players use vintage amps in anger. Hence, I’m not convinced they ‘are’ better.

- Gilmour
- Bonamassa
- Glenn Frey
- Deacon Frey
- SRV
- Felder
- Craig Ross
- Clapton
- May
- Gallagher (Rory or Noel!)
- Peter Buck
- Neil Young 
- Eric Johnson
- Reeves Gabrels

!!!!!

EC’s current amps are Dumble-built tweed twins, his previous ones were Fenders, built by John Suhr.

Can’t vouch for the rest (except perhaps Rory Gallagher, Glen Frey and SRV who’re using no amps) but a lot of players are using Two Rocks, Lazy Js, Matchless, Mesas, modern Marshalls, reissue Fenders, Tone Kings, etc.

The Suhr Twin was a direct clone of his prized 57 though. Gilmour uses DR504s, Ross has every vintage amp going, from Plexi to twins, Young a 1956 5E3, Johnson uses his twin/plexi but also uses modelling now....and so on. 

stonevibe

When we are all in "the nursing home", the kids will all want vintage Line 6 PODs. 

PAL

I don't think vintage amps are better I think the construction of the amp ( point to point/turret board ) made them more 
 serviceable and they have a longer life span. Vintage amps are like anything collectable they can be expensive.
 We all want new phones, cars, TVs, recording equipment but want old guitars & amps !
 If you bought say a modern day replica of a Fender or Marshall amp it would be really good as components are more
 consistent so there isn't a lot of variation in the sound of the amps if played side by side. Vintage amps used what they
 had available so amps varied sound wise but this never stopped a good musician getting a good sound from the amp !
 When Marshall did the Hendrix head they used three or four heads from the same period and made an amp out of the strong
 points from each amp.
 Now Hendrix sounded great so weather his amp was good or not never stopped him from being great.
 I use modern amps with circuit boards and they are good but I prefer my hand built hand wired amps to my ears they sound
 better to my ears and over a vintage amp they have reliability.
 I do realize they are a bit more expensive but I think they are worth it. I rather have one or two good amps & guitars
 than a lot of problem amps & guitars. I know many will disagree with me.
 In reality if it works for you don't worry about it. Thanks

 

roberty

I like single channel pedal platforms. The simplicity of certain vintage amps appeals to me. Anything with patchable bass and treble channels is a bonus. I ended up with a few vintage amps for that reason

Joey2014

Having recently bought a '72 JMP (model 1986), I feel inclined to say that vintage Marshall amps are definitely better than the current offerings. Out of the 7 heads that I have used over the past 4/5 years, the 3 old ones sounded so much better IMO (easier to fix too).

Can't speak for other brands though!

Dominic

I don't think Vintage Amps ARE any better 
the few that I have tried sounded no different to their modern equivalent
what made quite a bit of difference was older ,soft and worn-in speakers 

wellsyboy

I’ve had a boat load of boutique amps over the years and fine things they are too. My favourite of all is my current Bartel Sugarland. BUT… I have had two vintage blackface super reverbs and a vintage blackface vibrolux reverb (2x10) - they were fabulous. In my humble opinion if you want a Super reverb sound nothing comes close to a vintage Super reverb not even the really good clones - I can’t speak for any others because I haven’t had any others but I wonder if that is what people experience. I don’t think vintage amps are as good as some of the high quality amps that are on offer now but if you are trying to get the sound of a particular vintage amp model then vintage wins all day long - I don’t really understand why but I do think that there is something in the fact that back in the day those amps were played at high volumes. I remember seeing the Hoax using old blackface concerts etc and they were an amazing sound but crazy loud. Amps just don’t sound the same at low volumes for all those oft quoted reasons….. 

normula1

I've a couple of older amps ('73 JMP is younger than me therefore can't be vintage ) and it sounds great... does it sound better that my Laney Lionheart? In the right context yes, in the wrong context no. What it does have going for it is it's easy to fix. Both big smoothing caps completely failed in the Lionheart last year and were a pig to change compared with doing the same to the Marshall. I can handle a soldering iron and this is not a turret vs pcb (my Marshall is pcb albeit single sided) more about the component types used. There will be an element of lack of skill / tools with modern double sided through plated pcbs on my behalf too.

Caffeine_Vampire

JJMan said:

BTW most components go out of tolerance so unless you can find exact replacements you're not going to "hear" how it used to sound back in it's hay-day 

The most important comment on this post.

ecc83

LastMantra said:

It's mainly the good ones people like 
Although curiously not always. 

I'm not sure people's ears have changed that much over the years, what sounds good sounds good.

JJMan said:

BTW most components go out of tolerance so unless you can find exact replacements you're not going to "hear" how it used to sound back in it's hay-day 

That's probably true but then I rebuilt a WEM with all new components (except transformers, all but one, valves and PCB) and it sounded pretty darn close. Close enough for me anyway. I think one or two caps had a slightly different given value even.
It's maybe slightly quieter (and more reliable) if anything.

Probably not actually. I stripped out a 1950s radio a year ago and have just dug out some of the resistors. They have 'moved' thus,...

1k 1/2 w  1.28k

47k "        4.67k

470k        467k

3k9 1W    4.2k (10% tol others 20%) 

'Calibrated' the Fluke meter with a 1/4W MF 5% reads 2.175k nominal 2k2. I don't have any of the old foil capacitors to check but I doubt they have shifted out of tolerance any more than the Rs have.

What IS forgotten about 'tolerances' is that modern amps are still subject to them so one man's fantastic "Ballsbreaker" could be another's "mere!" if the voicing circuits differ significantly.

I did a lot of response checks on amps. I don't know if other amp mnfctrs are SO good at their QC?

Dave.

ecc83

The 47 k should read 51.7k Fekkin eye!

Dave.

ICBM

The ones I've noticed which go out of spec the most are carbon-comp plate resistors - many of those read significantly higher than the value, and that will have an impact on the sound, probably more than almost any other resistors in the circuit. Caps tend not to drift so much except for electrolytics, and those are rarely in positions where the value matters that much.

That said, when you come across a vintage amp which has been completely stripped out and rebuilt to schematic values with new components by a well-meaning (usually hi-fi trained!) tech, it often doesn't have as much of the 'vintage sound', so I suspect that it is down to component drift in a lot of cases - and lower noise, a small amount of hum is well known to improve the 'warmth' of the sound.

ecc83

ICBM said:

The ones I've noticed which go out of spec the most are carbon-comp plate resistors - many of those read significantly higher than the value, and that will have an impact on the sound, probably more than almost any other resistors in the circuit. Caps tend not to drift so much except for electrolytics, and those are rarely in positions where the value matters that much.

That said, when you come across a vintage amp which has been completely stripped out and rebuilt to schematic values with new components by a well-meaning (usually hi-fi trained!) tech, it often doesn't have as much of the 'vintage sound', so I suspect that it is down to component drift in a lot of cases - and lower noise, a small amount of hum is well known to improve the 'warmth' of the sound.

All the resistors were Carbon comps IC except of course the MF test resistor. Mine was of course a very small sample but I was surprised at how well the resistors had stayed inside 20% and even 10% tolerance?

Of course you would need to make a definitive recording of a vintage amp. Check the response and power delivery at say 10%THD. THEN strip it (keeping all the parts for forensics) Once  rebuilt with 1% MFs, repeat the response tests etc and the recording and post, blind to the gathering throng for dissertation!

Otherwise you are lost in a sea of confirmation bias. WHO has the time???!

Dave.

LastMantra

ICBM said:

The ones I've noticed which go out of spec the most are carbon-comp plate resistors - many of those read significantly higher than the value, and that will have an impact on the sound, probably more than almost any other resistors in the circuit. Caps tend not to drift so much except for electrolytics, and those are rarely in positions where the value matters that much.

That said, when you come across a vintage amp which has been completely stripped out and rebuilt to schematic values with new components by a well-meaning (usually hi-fi trained!) tech, it often doesn't have as much of the 'vintage sound', so I suspect that it is down to component drift in a lot of cases - and lower noise, a small amount of hum is well known to improve the 'warmth' of the sound.

Well I'm certainly not "hi-fi trained", but I know what I like
I chose the new components based on value/power rating, physical size/shape and to a lesser extent price. I wouldn't pay silly prices for "audiophile" caps but didn't use the cheapest options either. 
I'd be surprised, intrigued, if old Charlie didn't use the best bits he could get away with? Would he have been considering beneficial resister distortion (or whatever you call it)? 

I've still got most of the original parts out of mine. If I can ever be bothered digging them out I might check a few for fun.

You often do get a bit of hum from these simple old circuits, but now no crackley pots, rattly valves, or strange woofy sounds when it's switched off!

It's certainly a very "warm" sounding amp, when you want it to be. Don't think I'd need any more on the warm front.

Keefy

ICBM said:

… a small amount of hum is well known to improve the 'warmth' of the sound.

Can’t tell if you’re being serious here!

LastMantra

Keefy said:

ICBM said:

… a small amount of hum is well known to improve the 'warmth' of the sound.

Can’t tell if you’re being serious here!

I don't know, but I kind of agree.

ICBM

Keefy said:

Can’t tell if you’re being serious here!

Entirely serious.

In my opinion it’s one of the main reason things that don’t hum as much or at all - everything from EMG pickups to hum-cancelling ‘single coils’ to digital modellers to modern amps with a very low noise floor - are often perceived as ‘cold’ or ‘sterile’ sounding. A subtle amount of hum, not enough to be annoying but just enough to be audible, makes the sound noticeably warmer.

Keefy

ICBM said:

Keefy said:

Can’t tell if you’re being serious here!

Entirely serious.

In my opinion it’s one of the main reason things that don’t hum as much or at all - everything from EMG pickups to hum-cancelling ‘single coils’ to digital modellers to modern amps with a very low noise floor - are often perceived as ‘cold’ or ‘sterile’ sounding. A subtle amount of hum, not enough to be annoying but just enough to be audible, makes the sound noticeably warmer.

Well there’s a PhD topic for someone!