Alternative tunings, intonation, compensated saddles

blueskiwi

Most guitars have a compensated saddle and intonate well in standard tuning

But in say open E or D I find myself always fiddling with the tuning trying to find a compromise between the intonation of the open strings and the fretted notes

(What I'm talking about is distinct from the problem of notes in the first fret being a little sharp, which affects well-intonated guitars in std tuning as well but where further up the neck things are basically fine.)

I assume it would be possible to get a differently-compensated saddle for a specific tuning, like open D? Has anyone here done that?

Presumably if that works it would also be possible to have a saddle that is compensated halfway between standard and open D - where neither is perfectly intonated but both tunings are better than they would be on a saddle compensated for the other tuning?

Or... older guitars had uncompensated saddles - are they a pretty good compromise already, or just worse all round?

stickyfiddle

Most of the saddle’s compensation is for string thickness, not tuning. Don’t overthink it.

blueskiwi

I'm not anticipating a problem based on theory where there isn't one in practice - it's the actual out-of-tune notes that are bugging me!

If it sounds like I'm overthinking it that's just because I'm trying to work out if there is a solution that is not too much of a pain (like having to swap saddles when changing tuning long term)

Mellish

Do you use alternate tunings more than EADGBE?

 

blueskiwi

Mostly open E (or D) and open A (or G)

also standard and drop-D

Mellish

The reason I ask is that if you play in alternate tunings more, you should mention that to your preferred tech/Luther and get him/her to bear that in mind when doing a setup.

 

Winny_Pooh

IMO the open tunings will simply be making existing intonation issues more obvious.

Take your guitar to a tech and have them cut a new custom intonated saddle (I've done it for 2 acoustics using the buzz feiten intonation offsets) and it will sound better for everything. 
Then consider an earvana nut if your tuning problems are open chords in frets 1-3.

Stuckfast

I don't think this is an intonation issue as such, it's just the nature of equal temperament. It's perhaps a bit more obvious in open tunings.

Tannin

Hi @blueskiwi

What is going on here (at least as I see it) is a combination of two things. 

* The built-in errors of equal temperament, in particular major thirds (which are 13.7 cents sharp)
* Intonation errors on your guitar. (Or on almost any guitar, or any other fretted instrument for that matter.)

All normal guitars play a little sharp on the first few frets. This varies from string to string, and with string type. In theory, the 6th string is the worst, the 5th string next-worst, and so on, but in practice we tend not to notice it as much on the bass strings. For most players, the thickest plain string is the problem child (B string on normal acoustics), though others strings can be problematic too. 

(I met a vivid example of this on my long-scale baritone, which was rather nasty on the 2nd string, a .18 plain. Swap that to a .22 wound (thank you John Pierce!) and magic! A vastly better sound.) 

So why are intonation errors worse in different tunings? They aren't. Tuning of a given string (to a B or an A or whatever note) makes no difference worth mentioning. All it does is put the audible errors in different places.

A well-intonated standard guitar is likely to play about 5 cents sharp on the first fret, almost as much on the second fret, and gradually less, becoming perfect in tune on the 12th fret. 5 cents isn't really enough to bother anyone. The problems arise when that tiny 5 cent error is added to the 13.7 cent error of a major third, making the note almost 20 cents out, which is enough to hear. It's not only major thirds, major sixths are actually worse (15.6 cents plus intonation error) but it's the thirds you mostly notice.

Some guitarists try to deal with this by deliberately tuning slightly out. For example, in my normal standard tuning I habitually tune the B string very slightly flat and, on average, get a better sound that way. James Taylor has a useful video on You-tube  talking about his method, which is considerably more advanced. Some players re-tune between songs depending on the key of the next tune, tweaking the tuning for one or two particular chord shapes. (That's only ever going to work if most of the song is repetitive: melodically varied tunes won't benefit.)

However, when you switch to an open tuning, you are putting the errors in different places. Your normal tricks won't work, and quite possibly make things worse. You could try some different tricks (different slight mis-tunings) but in the end they are never going to fix the basic problem, which is that normally setup guitars don't intonate correctly on the first few frets, and sometimes those very small errors interact with the built-in "errors" of the equal-tempered scale and produce a nasty sound. 

Your answer, then, is to get the guitar set up, as far as possible, to play in tune all over the fretboard. (It doesn't matter which tuning you use, in tune will be in tune regardless.) And to achieve that, the first step is getting all the basics right. Many excellent guitars don't bother with compensated saddles and play well just the same, simply through getting the basics right. At home I have seven good quality guitars: two of them have compensated saddles, five do not. They all play acceptably well intonation-wise; the very best one in that regard (a Cole Clark) indeed has a compensated saddle - but so does the least-in-tune (a US-made Guild). 

The second step is to compensate the saddle.  That gets us closer.

The third - and I reckon this is where you need to be going - is to compensate at the nut as well. This seems counter-intuitive. When it was first mentioned to me I said "Nonsense, it's impossible - the moment you fret a note, the nut compensation becomes irrelevant". I was wrong, of course. Suppose a string plays sharp. It is tuned correctly for the open note, and the 12th fret note is also correct, but it plays sharp in the first few frets. Now move the nut (just for that string) a very small distance towards the first fret. Retune down a fraction to bring the open string back to the exact note. But the fret hasn't moved.  So when you play a note on the first fret, it is slightly flat compared to the note it used to make, and that is exactly what we want - it now plays in closer to perfect tune.

For most of us, this probably isn't worth doing. We have learned how to get sounds we like from the instruments we have. Often much of that learning is unconscious. But in your case, with a finely attuned ear (we know you have this because otherwise you wouldn't be bothered by the problem) and many different tunings to negotiate, I reckon a compensated nut might be the way to go. 

(As an aside, I'm wondering whether I should ask my luthier to do that on the new baritone he is going to start building fairly soon. Next time I see him I'll ask him what he thinks.)

ToneControl

As Tannin says, open (and modal) tunings could highlight normal equal temperament and low-fret intonation issues

You have to find a way that works for you

ICBM

If the problems are at the first fret then the cause is the nut, not the saddle. The saddle intonation has no effect that far down.

It’s most likely the nut grooves aren’t deep enough, so you’re pulling the strings sharp as you fret them - by different amounts depending on the tuning, since the pitch change varies with tension. (A lower tuning will have more pitch rise for a given distance to the fret.)

It’s not true that all guitars play sharp over the first few frets - before compensated nuts, many makers moved the whole nut very slightly forwards as well. If this is done and the nut isn’t too high then it will play perfectly in tune - or at least in equal temperament. To get it even ‘more in tune’ you need a fully compensated nut like the Earvana.

I would start by looking at the nut grooves - on almost all guitars that haven’t had a good set up, they won’t be deep enough. Fret each string at the third fret and look at the gap between the string and the first fret - it should be tiny, less than a quarter of the string diameter and preferably as little as a tenth of it on the thicker strings.

ToneControl

For nut slot checks I recently bought one of these:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08M42WR5D/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.musicnomadcare.com/Products/Nut-Height-Gauge





I know how to do it with feeler gauges or by touch, but because I don't do it very often, I need to look up the spec and youtube tutorials every time. this tool makes it a little easier to remember

I'd say any guitarist should consider getting one of these if they plan on owning more than 1 or 2 guitars, and/or buying and selling guitars over time

shufflebeat

I'm wondering if the lower tension of dropped strings is exacerbating an existing issue due to unwanted string-bend. I play in drop D most of the time and used to struggle with flakey pitch on the bottom D but that was solved with a different balance of string gauge, putting more weight on the bottom D and A.

This also made for a more balanced feel across the neck  

ToneControl

shufflebeat said:

I'm wondering if the lower tension of dropped strings is exacerbating an existing issue due to unwanted string-bend. I play in drop D most of the time and used to struggle with flakey pitch on the bottom D but that was solved with a different balance of string gauge, putting more weight on the bottom D and A.

This also made for a more balanced feel across the neck  

try tuning all the strings up one semitone

DavidR

If Rev. Gary Davis couldn't hear it, you won't be able to either.

:-)

DavidR

ToneControl said:

For nut slot checks I recently bought one of these:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08M42WR5D/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.musicnomadcare.com/Products/Nut-Height-Gauge





I know how to do it with feeler gauges or by touch, but because I don't do it very often, I need to look up the spec and youtube tutorials every time. this tool makes it a little easier to remember

I'd say any guitarist should consider getting one of these if they plan on owning more than 1 or 2 guitars, and/or buying and selling guitars over time

Did/do you find them useful? I bought identical MusicNomad tool a year or two back plus the very excellent 6-set of Acoustic nut slot files which MusicNomad make. (Nice box!)

Music Nomad 6 pc. Acoustic Guitar Diamond Coated Nut File Set - Light/Medium Strings (MN670) : Amazon.co.uk: Musical Instruments & DJ

I lower nut slot depths by stages each time I change strings and, doing that, I often find that I reach optimal playability at string heights above those recommended by the gauge. I suppose that has to mean that I actually like a high action at the nut in comparison to the 'average'. Also, and call me Mr. Stupid, I find it quite difficult to use the tool and can't tell when I'm using the right blade. Overall, I think I prefer doing it by 'feel'. This would not be a practical approach for a luthier or a 'techie' lowering action for someone else. Also, my technique takes months! But I've not cocked it up ever. Yet. :-)

viz

ToneControl said:

As Tannin says, open (and modal) tunings could highlight normal equal temperament and low-fret intonation issues

You have to find a way that works for you

Heya - can you give some examples of modal tunings? Sounds interesting. 

shufflebeat

ToneControl said:

shufflebeat said:

I'm wondering if the lower tension of dropped strings is exacerbating an existing issue due to unwanted string-bend. I play in drop D most of the time and used to struggle with flakey pitch on the bottom D but that was solved with a different balance of string gauge, putting more weight on the bottom D and A.

This also made for a more balanced feel across the neck  

try tuning all the strings up one semitone

DavidR said:

If Rev. Gary Davis couldn't hear it, you won't be able to either.

:-)

I'd be lynched by flute players and accordionists.

guitarjack66

DavidR said:

If Rev. Gary Davis couldn't hear it, you won't be able to either.

:-)

Anybody else hear 'Ooh Gary Davies,ooh Gary Davies,on your radio!' Every time you hear that name?

ToneControl

viz said:

ToneControl said:

As Tannin says, open (and modal) tunings could highlight normal equal temperament and low-fret intonation issues

You have to find a way that works for you

Heya - can you give some examples of modal tunings? Sounds interesting. 

DADGAD is the most famous one


Exploring the world of modal tunings - The Guitar Social

ToneControl

DavidR said:

ToneControl said:

For nut slot checks I recently bought one of these:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08M42WR5D/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.musicnomadcare.com/Products/Nut-Height-Gauge





I know how to do it with feeler gauges or by touch, but because I don't do it very often, I need to look up the spec and youtube tutorials every time. this tool makes it a little easier to remember

I'd say any guitarist should consider getting one of these if they plan on owning more than 1 or 2 guitars, and/or buying and selling guitars over time

Did/do you find them useful? I bought identical MusicNomad tool a year or two back plus the very excellent 6-set of Acoustic nut slot files which MusicNomad make. (Nice box!)

Music Nomad 6 pc. Acoustic Guitar Diamond Coated Nut File Set - Light/Medium Strings (MN670) : Amazon.co.uk: Musical Instruments & DJ

I lower nut slot depths by stages each time I change strings and, doing that, I often find that I reach optimal playability at string heights above those recommended by the gauge. I suppose that has to mean that I actually like a high action at the nut in comparison to the 'average'. Also, and call me Mr. Stupid, I find it quite difficult to use the tool and can't tell when I'm using the right blade. Overall, I think I prefer doing it by 'feel'. This would not be a practical approach for a luthier or a 'techie' lowering action for someone else. Also, my technique takes months! But I've not cocked it up ever. Yet. :-)

nicer to use than oily car mechanic ones, and since I use them infrequently, I found myself having to look up the correct one every time, so this gadget makes it a bit easier

I have adjusted them by feel as well, but it's nice to have the tool to increase confidence when doing that