The F1 thread

Fretwired

Aston Martin boss Andy Palmer says the British manufacturer is eager to build its own engines with Cosworth.

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/883196/1/2021-f1-rules-will-dictate-aston-martin-engine-decision

stickyfiddle

I read the other day that McLaren is also talking to Cosworth. Clearly the best option is to have an AM/Cossie in the RB, Honda to buy TR, Mclaren/Cosworth to build something for Mclaren itself, and Porsche to come in as well (maybe with Williams??)

Fretwired

stickyfiddle said:

I read the other day that McLaren is also talking to Cosworth. Clearly the best option is to have an AM/Cossie in the RB, Honda to buy TR, Mclaren/Cosworth to build something for Mclaren itself, and Porsche to come in as well (maybe with Williams??)

Cosworth will be looking at Aston Martin first as there is a tie-in with the firms road cars. I suspect Aston Martin may want to dissolve its partnership with AMG as its sales volumes increase. AMG is not a mass manufacturer of engines and when Aston was in financial trouble it needed a partner like Mercedes. As Aston grows it becomes a threat to the sale of Mercedes premium sports cars. McLaren already build engines for their road cars so I'd have thought they could fund development themselves as they have the know-how.  If teams can agree on a standard MGU-H unit then engine costs will fall.

Pablo

Does anyone else read Joe Saward's blog? He's suggesting that Red Bull/Aston Martin, Cosworth and McLaren will team up to design/build and share an engine:

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017/09/25/red-bull-and-aston-martin/

Fretwired

Pablo said:

Does anyone else read Joe Saward's blog? He's suggesting that Red Bull/Aston Martin, Cosworth and McLaren will team up to design/build and share an engine:

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017/09/25/red-bull-and-aston-martin/

I don't buy the McLaren involvement. Red Bull has the cash, Cosworth has the know-how. Why would they need McLaren?

lewism

Fretwired said:

Pablo said:

Does anyone else read Joe Saward's blog? He's suggesting that Red Bull/Aston Martin, Cosworth and McLaren will team up to design/build and share an engine:

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017/09/25/red-bull-and-aston-martin/

I don't buy the McLaren involvement. Red Bull has the cash, Cosworth has the know-how. Why would they need McLaren?

I think Red Bull are pretty much unofficially up for sale if the right offer turns up. Having McLaren in on the deal might help ease buyers uncertainty on the future sale. Nobody would want to buy Red Bull and their new, unproven engine and end up straight in the same boat that McLaren have been in. Wait, hold on....

chillidoggy

I see Di Resta, Massa and Kubica are in the running for a Williams seat next year. Love to see Kubica back again.

Fretwired

lewism said:

Fretwired said:

Pablo said:

Does anyone else read Joe Saward's blog? He's suggesting that Red Bull/Aston Martin, Cosworth and McLaren will team up to design/build and share an engine:

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017/09/25/red-bull-and-aston-martin/

I don't buy the McLaren involvement. Red Bull has the cash, Cosworth has the know-how. Why would they need McLaren?

I think Red Bull are pretty much unofficially up for sale if the right offer turns up. Having McLaren in on the deal might help ease buyers uncertainty on the future sale. Nobody would want to buy Red Bull and their new, unproven engine and end up straight in the same boat that McLaren have been in. Wait, hold on....

Not what Horner is saying. The owner loves F1 but the team need to be competitive. A more likely strategy is Aston taking a stake so the costs drop. The team is already Red Bull Aston Martin for 2018. Porsche are interested in entering and they may eye McLaren or Williams as partners. My guess would be McClaren if they can make the Renault engines work and prove they can design a podium winning car. Williams have the Mercedes engine and have underperformed for years.

New engine regs with simpler engines, faster cars and an end to the stupid penalty system and F1 could become even more exciting.

lewism

Perhaps, but one rumour doing the rounds (from Joe Saward) is that Horner is in talks with venture capital groups with an aim to buying the team himself!

FX_Munkee

lewism said:

Perhaps, but one rumour doing the rounds (from Joe Saward) is that Horner is in talks with venture capital groups with an aim to buying the team himself!

Has the man not suffered enough? He's married to Gerri Haliwell isn't he?

professorben

Well played sir. 
Well played. 

Fretwired

lewism said:

Perhaps, but one rumour doing the rounds (from Joe Saward) is that Horner is in talks with venture capital groups with an aim to buying the team himself!

Interesting - but its two teams isn't it? What about Torro Rosso? That will be a lot of cash .. if the Red Bull owner really wanted to sell then I'd have thought a firm like Porsche backed by VW Audi's cash would be an obvious choice. Not sure Aston Martin have that sort of money but I guess they could raise it and make Horner and Newbury shareholders.

chillidoggy

I can't see how it's two teams. I'd be surprised if they're not separate for corporate purposes as a wholly-owned subsidiary.

Actually, what IS an F1 team worth? Interesting.

Fretwired

chillidoggy said:

I can't see how it's two teams. I'd be surprised if they're not separate for corporate purposes as a wholly-owned subsidiary.

Actually, what IS an F1 team worth? Interesting.

I meant both funded by Red Bull. If the Red Bull owner wants out he'd sell both teams wouldn't he?

lewism

Mateschitz has been open to offers for Toro Rosso for a while and there have been a few rumours that Red Bull / Toro Rosso are inviting involvement from manufacturers to ease the eventual sale of the teams and their transition out of the sport. Again, this is just rumour but you can see how something more like Formula E (if they can make a proper go of it) might suit the demographic they're aiming their drinks at a bit more.

chillidoggy

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

I can't see how it's two teams. I'd be surprised if they're not separate for corporate purposes as a wholly-owned subsidiary.

Actually, what IS an F1 team worth? Interesting.

I meant both funded by Red Bull. If the Red Bull owner wants out he'd sell both teams wouldn't he?

Not necessarily.

Assuming they are 'separate' entities as I suggested,  I think it would depend on whether they're self-funding (by that I mean from sponsorship deals), and/or how much of a drain on his company's resources each of them are.

If Mateschitz sees an opportunity to rid himself of Toro Rosso, I reckon he would consider it, particularly if it were 'loss-making'. I suspect the reason he hasn't sold it thus far, is either no-one has offered what he thinks it's worth, or it's self-funding.

Mateschitz is a canny businessman, and the Red Bull F1 team is surely good for his core business in terms of PR/advertising, but as per usual in F1, we may never know what really goes on.

Fretwired

chillidoggy said:

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

I can't see how it's two teams. I'd be surprised if they're not separate for corporate purposes as a wholly-owned subsidiary.

Actually, what IS an F1 team worth? Interesting.

I meant both funded by Red Bull. If the Red Bull owner wants out he'd sell both teams wouldn't he?

Not necessarily.

Assuming they are 'separate' entities as I suggested,  I think it would depend on whether they're self-funding (by that I mean from sponsorship deals), and/or how much of a drain on his company's resources each of them are.

If Mateschitz sees an opportunity to rid himself of Toro Rosso, I reckon he would consider it, particularly if it were 'loss-making'. I suspect the reason he hasn't sold it thus far, is either no-one has offered what he thinks it's worth, or it's self-funding.

Mateschitz is a canny businessman, and the Red Bull F1 team is surely good for his core business in terms of PR/advertising, but as per usual in F1, we may never know what really goes on.

Mateschitz has stated that he will quit unless Red Bull start winning races again. Torro Rosso runs the Red Bull driver development programme and has a much smaller budget than the main team. I think it's cost neutral. Mateschitz isn't interested in Torro Rosso.

I think Red Bull will remain if the engine regs mean an Aston Martin/Cosworth/Red Bull engine could be cost-effectively built. Aston offers Red Bull access to a prestige car manufacturer and a partner - Red Bull Technology Ltd has already helped design a new Aston Martin road car and that could be a growing business for the Red Bull brand which funds the F1 team.

chillidoggy

Mateschitz has been rattling that particular sabre for so long now, people have grown weary of it. I think it's the PR/advertising thing that's likely to keep Red Bull in his ownership, though. Plus, prestige comes as part of the F1 package, and that won't have been lost on him.

Changing the subject, I think the more pressing thing is to ditch those bloody stupid grid penalties for the drivers.

Fretwired

chillidoggy said:

Changing the subject, I think the more pressing thing is to ditch those bloody stupid grid penalties for the drivers.

Brawn wants to do that and maybe hit teams with fines via prize money or deduct constructors points so the fans see decent drivers at the front of the grid. It maybe better to have cheaper engines so teams can have more of them for their buck and have simpler more reliable units.

stickyfiddle

Agree on ditching grid penalties. I can't be the only one who misses the semi-regular engine blowups of the 90's (and earlier) too. With the current regs you can be very confident that whoever is at the front won't have an engine blow up on him because they have to make them run umpteen races without a change. Cost-cutting is a lovely idea but the current engine regs don't achieve that - they just mean Mercedes & Ferrari spend way more money blowing them up on dynos first and pass on all that cost to the backmarkers who have to buy their engines.

Obviously the Ferrari-led charge for reliability in the early 2000's helped Schumacher's dominant titles, and other teams have simply realised that is the way to be at the front, but I wouldn't mind a bit less reliability from the top guys if it gave us some more podiums for the Trullis, Fisichellas and Panises of today.