Can you be too good technically at playing your instrument?

thebreeze

I went to see The Aristocrats/Guthrie Govan last night.

I have to say I was left feeling what's this all about - even what's the point?  I had to leave halfway through because my friend who's recently had a stroke was feeling a bit done in but I was ready to go anyway and would have left about then anyway had I been on my own.

There is absolutely no doubt those guys can play.  They're a trio and the drummer impressed me as much as Guthrie Govan in terms of his abilities.  

My sense was that they don't really know what to do with their talent and all those hours they've clearly spent practising.  There was a big emphasis on taking the piss out of musical genres (they were explicit about that).  Is that where you get to when you can play everything?  Even their name - The Aristocrats has a bold, confident ring with an air of taking the piss about it.

It made me appreciate Zappa that little bit more, someone with genius technical ability but who seemed to be wanting to take his music somewhere, no matter how experimental and eccentric.  The taking the piss elements are there too but there are songs, beginnings, a journey through the songs and conclusions.

The stuff last night could have been in any order, any "song", played back to front (they'll probably do that, they're that good) and it wouldn't have made any difference.

It may have all gone over my head of course and this could also be what they do to relax after they've done their serious work but I didn't really get that impression.

The thing for me (and usually always is with music) was where was the emotion?  How where they trying to get through to me, touch me?  Just left me cold, pretty bored after the initial "wow I bet that's hard to play" and tired.  Must be getting old.

They all seemed nice people and they seemed to be enjoying it themselves.  Horses for courses or technique dominating at a cost to the music?

merlin

I feel a lack of emotional connectivity with a lot of highly technical and intellectual playing. 

Very rarely do I get really moved by most "high end" playing that prioritises technique over passion. 

soma1975

I don't think I have ever heard Guthrie Govan ever play a memorable song. 

Agree he seems lovely and is super talented, but he's perhaps just not a great songwriter or isn't interested in that side of things. 

Vai has some great catchy riffs and hooks. Even Yngwie who is the only gig I have ever walked out of wrote a couple of catchy things 40 years ago. 

So it's not ability, but rather intent. I think people on Govan's level get bored with playing normal person music and have to do something else to keep themselves interested, which is sadly is not what most punters want from their music. 

Maybe because he's not really been in a regular rock band but his music seems, for want of a better phrase, incredibly sexless. 

timmypix

Fun and enjoyment are emotions/feelings. Not everything has to tug at your heart strings to be "emotional". 

If you didn't enjoy it, that's fine, you don't have to enjoy everything, but that doesn't mean the things you don't enjoy don't have value.

The Artistocrats do what they do for fun, and they know some people find what they do fun, too. I almost think it's an environment in which to show off, but not in a "look at me" way, more a "this is silly fun" way.

I'm with you in that I don't really enjoy them for more than 15 minutes or so - I can't listen to an album, but my partner, who doesn't play an instrument, loves them, so there's clearly something there for some people to connect to beyond just technical prowess.

thebreeze

timmypix said:

Fun and enjoyment are emotions/feelings. Not everything has to tug at your heart strings to be "emotional". 

If you didn't enjoy it, that's fine, you don't have to enjoy everything, but that doesn't mean the things you don't enjoy don't have value.

The Artistocrats do what they do for fun, and they know some people find what they do fun, too. I almost think it's an environment in which to show off, but not in a "look at me" way, more a "this is silly fun" way.

I'm with you in that I don't really enjoy them for more than 15 minutes or so - I can't listen to an album, but my partner, who doesn't play an instrument, loves them, so there's clearly something there for some people to connect to beyond just technical prowess.

Fair points.  What does your partner love about it, do you know?

LionAquaLooper

My belief is that's just how they chose to express their musical ideas, and the technique and abilities was just secondary.  Rivers Cuomo of Weezer writes relatively "simplistic" and poppy songs but that guy can shred.  There are plenty other songwriters of the same ilk.  The Aristocats guys must just gravitate towards that kind of music but I don't believe they intentionally chose it to showcase their abilities.  And I'll agree - it doesn't hit me emotionally either.  But then again a lot of people go crazy over free jazz so, go figure.  Different wavelengths.  
In general I don't think anybody can be too good technically because there's always something new on the horizon.    

RickLucas

That's how I sometimes feel about those gigs where the band is made up of great players and the audience is mostly chin stroker musos. It depends what you want from it all I guess: songs and melodies, 3 chords and the truth or more chords than you can shake a Telecaster at combined with a load of histrionics. Dare I say it, Jeff Beck is phenomenal, but I prefer him when he's on other people's records. 

merlin

There is a big difference between "can" and "should". 

nacnudnai

To answer the question in the title - no, because you can always be better!

On the point of enjoying technical music, it's just purely subjective and is no different to any other aspect of life. It kinda feels a bit like moaning that an F1 driver is "too fast". In that sport, that is the point. A Michelin star chef's food is too complicated, when they could just make a pot noodle for you. A comedian's joke is too funny, when a knock knock joke will do.

Some people enjoy the challenge of playing and writing complex music, because it pushes their personal boundaries in exactly the same way. Some don't like it, and it's fine. It's just as much a challenge to write it as it is to write something which grabs you "emotionally". And it's completely fine that you may want something different from music, relative to what they want to achieve with their music.

As a bit of a side, I also think it's a bit reductive to judge Guthrie on The Aristocrats when he has done waaaay more than this. His guitar playing with Hans Zimmer is just unbelievable, and nothing like what he does with The Aristocrats

Sporky

Isn't the band name about the joke?

There's some fiendishly complex stuff that does it for me (Invalids for example), and some that doesn't. I don't think there's necessarily a link between virtuosity and music-I-don't-get.

Cardiacs spring to mind. Even within a given album, some of it sounds magnificent to me, some I just can't follow. Same talent on their side.

Grumpyrocker

I don't think you can be too technically good a player. But your ability as a player is not necessarily linked in any way to being a good composer. My wife is a very skilled pianist, and admits she has never written a song in her life. Look at orchestras, in a crass way we can describe them as being elaborate covers bands, despite the skill on show.

And sometimes what a brilliant guitarist needs is to work with someone who can write songs. When it comes together with other creatives then you get something special. 

I know others will poor scorn, but I always think it's a shame EVH didn't play in band that had more going on lyrically and thematically than fancying your teacher (great song though that is). 

There are so many wonderful skilled guitarist that never did find that band. That group of people that elevated them from being a brilliant player, to someone who played the solo on that timeless rock classic.

Edit: I must admit now I think about it my favourite guitarists are the ones that show great skill, but combine that with an ability for composition and songwriting. Gary Moore, Adrian Smith, Jimmy Page, Dave Mustaine etc.

jeztone2

Technical Ability comes in and out of fashion. To be honest I prefer it now to the snooty early 90’s indie scene. Where I was once called a “muso” for being able to tune a guitar by ear. 

CountryDave

I totally get this. 

A few years ago I went to a guitar clinic with Tom Quayle and one of his mates (name escapes me).  Tom is an incredible player and I do enjoy his in depth gear reviews.  But after the initial, 'this is my setup and how I use it', the playing (to backing tracks, so not just noodling) at the clinic felt like it was musical maths.  Me and my mate ended up leaving after a while as apparently there are only so many notes and arpeggios my brain can handle in an hour.

For the record, I am at best, a basic player with limited technical knowledge.  However, I have enjoyed other clinics where people have worked through their setups and played to backing tracks (a Boss effects demo and Albert Lee amongst others) along with gigs by Emmanuel, Simpson, Vai, Lukather, Beck, Albert Lee and many others. So I'm not particularly averse to an extended solo or ten.

I suspect I'm much attracted to the songs/compositions that (old man rant coming) have a bit of a tune.  I also thoroughly enjoyed the Noel Gallagher TPS episode.

roberty

I guess point of that band is as a vehicle for their chops. Govan is capable of playing appropriately in different contexts, for instance he's been doing soundtrack work with Hans Zimmer recently. Balls to the wall wizardry is appropriate for the trio he's put together

joeW

No - but technical ability isn’t music.  There are players that have no ability to write music but are technically excellent.  Like having a massive vocabulary but unable to write a good book.  Plenty of writers are very successful without a huge vocabulary - musically equivalent to Noel Gallagher.  But then there are the Shakespeares too - I love jazz and there are plenty of technical monsters that I love to listen to - Joe Pass, George Benson, Pat Martino … 

Philly_Q

thebreeze said:

Can you be too good technically at playing your instrument?

Speaking personally, not something I am ever going to have to worry about...

But the short answer, I think, is No. 

Technical ability, musical knowledge is like a weapons arsenal, a toolkit, it's there in reserve but you're not going to be using it all at the same time.  I'd like to think that the doctor who sorts out an ingrowing toenail isn't displaying 100% of their medical knowledge in doing so.

Musicians can make overly-technical, complex music which isn't enjoyable to listen to.  They can write in a way which sticks too rigidly to music theory.  But I don't think that's because they have technical ability or musical knowledge.  They just don't make the right choices.

Sporky

Philly_Q said:

They can write in a way which sticks too rigidly to music theory.

All music sticks rigidly to music theory. Theory just explains, it cannot force you to use any particular note(s) or rhythm(s). 

Philly_Q

Sporky said:

Philly_Q said:

They can write in a way which sticks too rigidly to music theory.

All music sticks rigidly to music theory. Theory just explains, it cannot force you to use any particular note(s) or rhythm(s). 

I guess so.  But I meant that presumably there are, for example, people who get very caught up in playing the "right" notes over every chord before they even start, so it can sort of stifle them.  Whereas others will just wing it and "feel" what sounds right or wrong, to them.

I don't really know.  I'm not at that level and never will be.

Edit:  I'm approaching this very much from the perspective of someone who would like to have technical ability and musical knowledge.  I basically haven't got any.

elstoof

I think the problem was mainly going to see the Aristocrats when expecting something different

Stevepage

I’ve wondered before if you ever could and I think the main danger with spending hours practicing speed and precision so much is that you can become too ‘mechanical’ in your playing. 

Some do it brilliantly though, Nuno Bettencourt and Richie Kotzen spring to mind as being two players who have a brilliant mix of technical brilliance and feel/groove.

CaseOfAce

Philly_Q said:

thebreeze said:

Can you be too good technically at playing your instrument?

They just don't make the right choices.

Nail meet hammer.

He's a fantastic educator, instructor and interviewee.
But musically well.. I like the intro to this - one of Guthrie's signature tracks - Waves (lovely Jimmy Johnson / Holdsworth style bass)... and then it all goes wrong for me 38 seconds in... 
and what follows is hundreds and hundreds of notes up and down the neck and it's zzzzz. 

"Try taking the f^%^%ing horn out of your mouth." - Miles Davis (After Davis was questioning the increasing length of John Coltrane solos, and Trane answered "I don't know how to stop.")

Guthrie Govan - Waves - YouTube