Pedal steel live debut (and subsequent efforts).

Stuckfast

Great stuff.

I love the strategically placed book underneath the left heel! Do you not like playing in shoes?

jpfamps

Stuckfast said:

Great stuff.

I love the strategically placed book underneath the left heel! Do you not like playing in shoes?

I like to be able to feel the pedals.

I've not been able to find the right footwear yet.

I need to experiment with the pedal set up to see if I can get them low enough to play without the book.

My current set up is fine if I'm just on the A&B pedals but if I want to employ the 3rd pedal, which I have started doing, then moving the feet around causes the book to move!

As the legs are not adjustable I can't use the volume pedal with a shoe on either!

jpfamps

Here's an example of early non-pedal style playing on Hank Williams' Honky Tonkin'.

Pressing pedals 3&4 on my Fender 400 converts the tuning from E13th to B6th which is great for classic country / swing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmHByvdC_xw 

jpfamps

And here's a "take off" style non-pedal solo in White Lightening using E13th.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFi9LZWMe88

mandosteve

Pedal steel footwear is no joke actually! I have specific shoes I like to wear (and I bought two pairs when I found them). I try and find shoes with flat, relatively thin soles. I agree you want to feel the pedals underfoot, but a nice firm sole will make sure that no barefoot related half-presses happen when your depressing the A&B pedals together! Particularly live when adrenaline and beer happens.

Also your right hand palm blocking technique looks really good! Fender steel sounds amazing as well. Lovely to see a fellow steeler on here!

Stephen

jpfamps

mandosteve said:

Pedal steel footwear is no joke actually! I have specific shoes I like to wear (and I bought two pairs when I found them). I try and find shoes with flat, relatively thin soles. I agree you want to feel the pedals underfoot, but a nice firm sole will make sure that no barefoot related half-presses happen when your depressing the A&B pedals together! Particularly live when adrenaline and beer happens.

Also your right hand palm blocking technique looks really good! Fender steel sounds amazing as well. Lovely to see a fellow steeler on here!

Stephen

Good to hear from another steeler!

I'm still on the look out for suitable footware.

I can see having a sole underfoot will help to minimize issues when using the A&B pedals.

I would like a bit of a heel as well, although I'm fairly certain I have not optimized the pedal heights yet.

re beer, I don't really drink much now, but even when I was drinking I daren't even have one beer when I was playing steel.

As I'm sure your aware, the right hand is major issue with steel, and it's still a work in progress.

Whilst there is a trend towards pick blocking with modern pedal steel, I started on lap / straight steel and, in my opinion, picking block isn't they way to go with lap steel.

When I started out I had my palm i a poor position, but I manged to get hold of a copy of Jeff Newman's "Right Hand Alpha" course and that really helped to sort this out.

Those old Fender 400s sound great, although as I am sure you are aware, they are not that desirable these day.

Many great records were made using them though.

Stuckfast

mandosteve said:

 I try and find shoes with flat, relatively thin soles.

Me too, I have a pair of Skechers that work quite well but they are almost worn out now and I can't find new ones without a built-up heel.

Any tips for improving palm blocking? I find pick blocking comes much more naturally but there are things you can only do with the side of the hand and I really struggle with those.

jpfamps

Stuckfast said:

mandosteve said:

 I try and find shoes with flat, relatively thin soles.

Me too, I have a pair of Skechers that work quite well but they are almost worn out now and I can't find new ones without a built-up heel.

Any tips for improving palm blocking? I find pick blocking comes much more naturally but there are things you can only do with the side of the hand and I really struggle with those.

The most useful info I found was in the Jeff Newman course, of which there is a brief segment on Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB1UIPip2iw&t=193s 

The key points are that the right hand is far enough foward and upright enough so the edge of the palm can simply drop down to damp the strings.

You need to make sure that you move you hand back on forth across the strings depending on the top string you are playing.

A by product of this hand position is that you pick across the strings in almost stroking motion and this gives a slightly softer attack which sounds better. Jerry Byrd describes the "correct" picking technique as the same motion as openning a bottle top.

When I started out I had my palm very flat and rather hacked at the strings, which combined with picking too hard, produced quite an unpleasant sound.

It interesting looking at players online; there are plenty of players, even very good ones, who have a flat palm, and I think that the tone they get is often not great.

Incidentally I also employ pick blocking for certain things, but I do mainly use palm blocking.

Jimbro66

jpfamps said:

And here's a "take off" style non-pedal solo in White Lightening using E13th.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFi9LZWMe88

That was excellent! Nice work.

EricTheWeary

[enjoyed the clip BTW] I used to know a drummer who wore rock climbing shoes which are, I think, thin with grip for max pedal control. Sewers often wear slippers because they are comfortable without a heel (if using a sewing machine it’s hours of footwork) - even less rock and roll than climbing shoes. 

Stuckfast

jpfamps said:

The key points are that the right hand is far enough foward and upright enough so the edge of the palm can simply drop down to damp the strings.

You need to make sure that you move you hand back on forth across the strings depending on the top string you are playing.

A by product of this hand position is that you pick across the strings in almost stroking motion and this gives a slightly softer attack which sounds better. Jerry Byrd describes the "correct" picking technique as the same motion as openning a bottle top.

Interesting. I think my hand position is reasonably OK looking at that video. It's not quite as upright as Jeff Newman's but it's definitely not flat. I don't have a problem using the side of my hand to damp when playing slowly, I just can't do the fast palm-blocked stuff a la David Hartley or Sarah Jory.

mandosteve

I mainly palm block (particularly for classic country stuff) and pick block when I'm trying to emulate slide guitar stuff or play single note melodies. The right hand alpha is a great video - I used it too! 

The classic right hand mistakes are flaring the elbow out (which I noticed you didn't do at all - which is excellent), and having lots of tension in the right hand. Buddy Emmons' right hand technique is the gold standard in my opinion so I would watch videos of him and try to figure out how to make my hand look more like this (even if it will never *sound* like it! haha). It did help though. The key thing is he is always very relaxed I think (as you say - no hacking away at it).

Its all good fun and we're all a work in progress though eh?

jpfamps

mandosteve said:

I mainly palm block (particularly for classic country stuff) and pick block when I'm trying to emulate slide guitar stuff or play single note melodies. The right hand alpha is a great video - I used it too! 

The classic right hand mistakes are flaring the elbow out (which I noticed you didn't do at all - which is excellent), and having lots of tension in the right hand. Buddy Emmons' right hand technique is the gold standard in my opinion so I would watch videos of him and try to figure out how to make my hand look more like this (even if it will never *sound* like it! haha). It did help though. The key thing is he is always very relaxed I think (as you say - no hacking away at it).

Its all good fun and we're all a work in progress though eh?

Buddy Emmons was the man; I've spent quite a lot of time looking at his picking / blocking technique.

For a while I was unsure how to approach single line work, but from watching Buddy I now use his approach, which is just to use the thumb and middle finger.

He doesn't exclusivley palm block on single line work; he palm blocks the lower strings, but uses the finger tip of his ring finger to block when moving his hand towards the bass strings.

Jeff Newman is very millitant about the right hand technique and keeping the right elbow tucked in.

Some teachers apparently recommend holding a tennis ball under your arm to ensure you keep your elbow in.

My elbow is not tucked in a tight as that; I think key point here is that you should have any tension in your wrist and be nice and relaxed.

If the elbow moves out that's increases tension on your arm / wrist.

mandosteve

I do the thumb/middle thing too for single notes. I hadn’t heard the tennis ball thing. Yeah I think it’s just avoiding that extreme unnatural elbow flair (which would suggest tension I suppose?).

I think getting a handle on both blocking techniques is worthwhile as it does sound a bit different playing the same line with one or the other. I think a lot of the great players do a bit more of both than they let on (or even realise). I don’t think pedal steel has had the ‘Troy Grady’ stick a camera on them revolution yet!

hollywoodrox

That’s great love a bit of pedal steel , love when Ron plays it in the stones 

jpfamps

mandosteve said:

I do the thumb/middle thing too for single notes. I hadn’t heard the tennis ball thing. Yeah I think it’s just avoiding that extreme unnatural elbow flair (which would suggest tension I suppose?).

I think getting a handle on both blocking techniques is worthwhile as it does sound a bit different playing the same line with one or the other. I think a lot of the great players do a bit more of both than they let on (or even realise). I don’t think pedal steel has had the ‘Troy Grady’ stick a camera on them revolution yet!

I certainly use pick blocking on some lines, especially those at higher tempo.

They do sound different, and generally I tend to prefer the sound of palm blocking.