Japanese Lawsuits (SG & LP etc). What makes them different to the originals?

Creed_Clicks

Tyre kicking SGs at the moment. Are there any advantages an Edwards, Japanese Tokai, Greco etc would have over a Gibson? I am assuming they are all built to pretty much the exact same template. Are they using different woods? Better woods? Or are they just cheaper but decent quality clones of a particular Gibson model?
I can understand the Jap lawsuit Rickenbackers, as Rics are hard to come by in general, but e.g. an old Greco SG or LP custom?

BobHillman

That's a bit like asking "how long is a piece of string?" because there are so many different models, at different price points, with correspondingly different construction and materials.

blobb

None of them have 'Gibson' on the headstock. That aside, Japanese guitars are generally extremely well made, would you buy a Japanese car or an American car? As above, lot's a different comparisons you can make depending on the make or model but I stand by my assertion about Japanese quality. The good ones are really good, the catalogue stuff is just that. It's worth doing a bit of research on the particular model you are interested in. 

BobHillman

There is some general information here, with some useful links -

http://www.japanguitars.co.uk/Page 1 history.html

Creed_Clicks

Let's say, to narrow it down, a standard Gibson SG v a standard Edwards or Jap Tokai SG for example.. 

Revolutions

Overly simplistic answer if comparing top-end models vs Gibson: expect same build quality but cheaper.

Generally poly finishes & slimmer necks. 

Creed_Clicks

Revolutions said:

Overly simplistic answer if comparing top-end models vs Gibson: expect same build quality but cheaper.

Generally poly finishes & slimmer necks. 

That is what I have noticed. Poly finishes and slim necks.

PAL

A lot of the lawsuit guitar I have experienced were made to a budget although they were good guitars. I wouldn't compare
 a copy of a Gibson to the real thing just ask yourself given a choice if they were free which would you choose !
 The important thing is to make a guitar less expensive you need to use less expensive components for example electrics,
 switches, pots and pickups also the fret wire wasn't what you would find on a Gibson guitar. As someone has already pointed out most of the copies were poly finish. I had a CSL Les Paul standard ( bolt on neck ) It was good because I didn't know much at the time but then I bought a Gibson SG Les Paul Junior and what a difference I then realized you got what you paid for and 
there are no short cuts. It's much the same today really but there is so much available however if it has to be and SG I would
go for one of the more expensive models because some of these have Gibson USA fret wire. If I had to choose a lower end 
guitar without doubt I would buy a PRS SE guitar you can get one for £500 new. The good thing is there is a lot of choice
out there and you just have to find something tat works for you. Hope this helps, Good luck.

prowla

There was one lawsuit, against the US Ibanez importer. 

Ironically, Ibanez changed the headstock in question before it proceeded. 

Creed_Clicks

@PAL given the choice, I would *probably* go for a Gibson SG, but you see so many people moaning about Gibsons online, or moaning about neck dive, and bendy necks etc, it's hard to know if it is worth the extra few quid!

timmypix

Here's the product page for the most recent Edwards SG (though they are now discontinued)

https://espguitars.co.jp/product/4754/

So pau ferro vs rosewood, it's not stated but it'll be a poly finish, JB/59 set.

You don't see many Edwards over here though, and I wouldn't put Edwards on a level with high-end Japanese Tokai - they're built in China and final assembly is in Japan. If you want Japanese quality from ESP to equal the top end Japanese Tokais, you need to look at Navigator, but a Gibson will probably be cheaper and more readily available.

That said, I can't find SGs creeping as high up in the Tokai model range as the LPs do, as you basically get close to Custom Shop specs at the top end of Japanese Tokai Les Pauls.

Here's the spec page for the Tokai SG; there does appear to only be the one, and it does look pretty similarly specced to the Edwards.

https://tokaigakki.com/lineup/ate-102-3/

But again, good luck finding one quicker and cheaper than you can pick up a used Gibson SG Special/Tribute, which really aren't that different to Standards. If you're happy with dot inlays, silkscreened logo and no neck binding, a Special/Tribute will almost certainly be the best option. Recent sold eBay listings suggest £600-800.

Schnozz

The Japanese have been pulling Gibsons apart since the late 60s, so rest assured.

If you look at the timber that Gibson use for their standard range vs Yamaha, there's no comparison, but you end up paying more than you need to with Yamaha, unless you go for a lower range SG/SF/MSG.

I personally prefer Deviser (Bacchus, Seventy Seven & Momose) and Fujigen's offerings over Edwards, Burny and Tokai (some Edwards are actually made in China). 

Tokai have made their bridge pickups hotter, so it may not be the sound you have in your head, whereas Fujigens just have a PAF (my Devisers had Alnico IIs). Newer builds can come with timbers like Granadillo for the fingerboard, so just check for that.

Creed_Clicks

Thanks for the info. I would narrow it down to Japanese made, and even narrow it down further if I know what I want!

Schnozz

Sometimes models are referred to as 'lawsuit' when actually it's just because they were building/shadow building for Gibson/Fender at the time and have subsequently been told to stop the clones.

Creed_Clicks

I will narrow it down to an SG Junior!

Kittyfrisk

Leftfield thought... https://www.gak.co.uk/en/epiphone-limited-edition-yungblud-sg-junior-classic-white/970892

Revolutions

If you want a junior, you may as well stick to Gibson. I doubt the lawsuit models will be cheaper, and will be harder to find.

my SG junior has a wide nut but slim neck. Kinda odd but it’s really grown on me.

Schnozz

Creed_Clicks said:

I will narrow it down to an SG Junior!

I've seen Bacchus Specials and Tokai Juniors before, but a little bit harder to find. If you find a nice SG then I'd just swap the 'buckers for SD Phat Cats (or alternative).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVyTEoNsOV0

willo

My experience is Japanese guitars are often excellent build quality, but I do love the US made stuff and a part of that is the brand, illogical as that is.

The current SG61s are good - thin necks and often quite reasonable second hand.

Creed_Clicks

@timmypix I should have started with looking at their websites !

Creed_Clicks

willo said:

My experience is Japanese guitars are often excellent build quality, but I do love the US made stuff and a part of that is the brand, illogical as that is.

The current SG61s are good - thin necks and often quite reasonable second hand.

The choice for SGs even second hand fries my head! Even within a select budget limit there are so many options. What year to go for etc. Will a standard SG from 2007 be the same as one from 1997 or 2017
or 1987 for example !