Japanese Lawsuits (SG & LP etc). What makes them different to the originals?

JMS96

Where I see value in these is in the near
vintage - 80s/90s Japanese guitars with loads of mojo. A real Gibson is going into vintage premium territory and will fetch CS prices but a Japanese copy can be had for <£1k. And will be as good a guitar or better. A couple of these are teasing me on the forum right now (no affiliation). 

willo

Creed_Clicks said:

willo said:

My experience is Japanese guitars are often excellent build quality, but I do love the US made stuff and a part of that is the brand, illogical as that is.

The current SG61s are good - thin necks and often quite reasonable second hand.

The choice for SGs even second hand fries my head! Even within a select budget limit there are so many options. What year to go for etc. Will a standard SG from 2007 be the same as one from 1997 or 2017
or 1987 for example !

I think it's 2012-2017 that people question for the standard US range of Gibson ...others can advise as I wasn't buying then. 

I know the current line up was introduced in mid 2019 and doesn't include the model year stamped on the back of the headstock - easiest way to identify them. Of the current range you have specials (2 x P90, wraptail bridge), 61s (thin neck, more minimal neck joint - so faster playing, potentially needs a bit more care protecting it, and 2 x Burstbucker 61 pickups, and a half pickguard), and Standards (full batwing pickup, thicker neck and more.robust neck joint, can't remember the electronics). They also released both the 61 and Standard in new colours recently. 

61s are usually around £1100-1200 used, even from a retailer, which is cracking and you can always return it. Standards are less. Specials less again but closer to their RRP (which is lower).

I think the range has been similar for a long time, other than a range which had 2 P90s and a two piece bridge/stoptail (SG Classic?), and the more fancy modern stuff like Moderns, Supremes etc. 

Creed_Clicks

JMS96 said:

Where I see value in these is in the near
vintage - 80s/90s Japanese guitars with loads of mojo. A real Gibson is going into vintage premium territory and will fetch CS prices but a Japanese copy can be had for <£1k. And will be as good a guitar or better. A couple of these are teasing me on the forum right now (no affiliation). 

Interesting…

e.g. an 80s Greco LP Custom MIJ is way cheaper than a Gibson. How good it is I don’t know …

PAL

Creed_Clicks said:

@PAL given the choice, I would *probably* go for a Gibson SG, but you see so many people moaning about Gibsons online, or moaning about neck dive, and bendy necks etc, it's hard to know if it is worth the extra few quid!

There are Gibsons and Gibsons ! I say this because they vary a lot. I had a 2019 Original series SG Junior it had what Gibson
call a 60s slim neck. I bought this from a friend he had issues with neck dive yet I had no issues I think this was due to to him
wearing the guitar lower than me and because I had the guitar higher meant my right forearm rested on the top of the guitar
however even if I took my right arm off the guitar it didn't neck dive so I would guess a shorter strap held the guitar steady !
I had no issues regarding bendy necks but I have met people who have and the one thing they had in common was light strings ! ( 9s or 8s ) I found 10s worked well and could possibly stabilize a long neck as light strings will allow the neck to flex
which is normal but worth considering.
The other thing I would suggest is going for an SG that has vintage Kluson type tuners as they are lighter than the metal button types. Also you could move the strap button to the top horn like Toni Iommi !
You will hear stories about Gibsons and tuning problems but I think this is down to strings not being fitted properly I
I have two Gibson Custom Shop Guitars R8 & R9 I also have a 2019 LP Junior & the SG Junior and never had any tuning issues with them. I sold the SG because I prefer the LP type of guitar.
I would say yes it is worth paying the extra. 
You will hear stories about guitars no matter what make they are if you want an SG then try some out . Guitars are not perfect
but with a little time you will be able to get the guitar you want to play and feel the way you want .
Here are my Gibson guitars so as you can see I am talking from experience. Good Luck.

Neilybob

I'll leave this here. My 90's Burny SG Junior. Imported from Japan all in for £500. I haven't played a Gibson to compare (maybe I should pop down to Anderton's and do a comparison).

Lights fuse and legs it! 

Revolutions

Just remembered my early 70s Antoria SG bolt-on. Had the worst diy paint job & an ill-fitting guard. Also the electrics were a mess. But the neck was sublime & the bridge Pickup sounded incredible.

Revolutions

Also had 3 different bolt on Antoria lp customs over the years, too. Again lovely slim necks & the pickups were always great. Apart from feeling cheap & plasticy incredible value. Never paid more than £180.

Revolutions

I treated myself to an 89 OBG (far left) - was a great guitar, just didn’t inspire me & the 91 standard on the right has become my go-to guitar for anything not telecaster related.

Revolutions

And why not, my Gibson junior. Tried to sell it, then it grew on me. You can’t beat P90s. I just wish it had a slimmer neck.

(Sorry for all the separate posts)

timmypix

Creed_Clicks said:

willo said:

My experience is Japanese guitars are often excellent build quality, but I do love the US made stuff and a part of that is the brand, illogical as that is.

The current SG61s are good - thin necks and often quite reasonable second hand.

The choice for SGs even second hand fries my head! Even within a select budget limit there are so many options. What year to go for etc. Will a standard SG from 2007 be the same as one from 1997 or 2017
or 1987 for example !

More or less, yes. The SG Standard has remained fairly consistent from the early 90s to the present day, even in the 2013-2019 years. Almost always a large guard with 490R/490T pickups. There are exceptions, particularly in those aforementioned years, but nothing too wild (2015 aside, but 2015 is just a weird year for Gibson), and you can always look up the spec of a given year if one pops up that you're considering.

ICBM

Probably late to this, but regardless of what internet lore says, there is no such thing as a ‘lawsuit model’. There was never a lawsuit, only a threatened one, it only applied to the US importer of Ibanez, and only to the headstock shape.

There are Japanese 1970s/early 80s Gibson copies of very widely varying construction and quality, often even within the same brand, and without knowing exactly what model it is it’s impossible to tell anything very useful about whether it’s likely to be ‘as good as a Gibson’ or not. Or better - at least partly because Gibson made some complete junk during this period as well.

Ironically, the very best Japanese guitars from this period are not Gibson copies at all…

Creed_Clicks

Neilybob said:

I'll leave this here. My 90's Burny SG Junior. Imported from Japan all in for £500. I haven't played a Gibson to compare (maybe I should pop down to Anderton's and do a comparison).

Lights fuse and legs it! 

This! An example of what I was curious about.

Creed_Clicks

@Revolutions that black SG junior is lovely looking! Nice collection you posted there.

rlw

https://reverb.com/uk/item/83877310-tokai-sg242-cherry-ch-2024-long-neck-tenon-made-in-japan

Interesting that this doesn't show up on the Tokai website - maybe that's out of date - but this has a much better spec.

How mad is it though that they are now making LS150 replicas alongside the premium LS range

https://reverb.com/uk/item/81972615-tokai-love-rock-ls150f-3a-relic-sg-hb-premium-series-japan-3a-solid-flame-top-in-honeyburst-s-n-2349067

https://reverb.com/uk/item/81546221-tokai-love-rock-ls150f-3a-relic-sg-tb-premium-series-japan-3a-solid-flame-top-in-tea-burst-s-n-2449313

Philly_Q

rlw said:

https://reverb.com/uk/item/83877310-tokai-sg242-cherry-ch-2024-long-neck-tenon-made-in-japan

Interesting that this doesn't show up on the Tokai website - maybe that's out of date - but this has a much better spec.

I've got a much older version of the same guitar, when it was the SG-155 (the changing number reflects the increasing price in Yen).  I bought mine because I wanted a '61-'62 style SG but with a chunkier neck than the Gibson reissues.  It's a good guitar with quality components.

I also had a cheaper Tokai SG (SG-75 at the time) which was similarly well made and felt identical to the SG-155, but had lower-spec hardware and electronics, poly finish and probably a two- or three-piece body. 

And finally I had an old Greco SG (SS-600P2) which was fine, but felt like it was made of balsa wood and sounded very "brash".

They're all nice Gibson alternatives - at various price points - rather than offering anything significantly different from, or better than, Gibson.  

robgilmo

Instead of asking which is best why not ask yourself what you actually need, then find someone who produces such a thing.

Creed_Clicks

robgilmo said:

Instead of asking which is best why not ask yourself what you actually need, then find someone who produces such a thing.

An SG 

robgilmo

Creed_Clicks said:

robgilmo said:

Instead of asking which is best why not ask yourself what you actually need, then find someone who produces such a thing.

An SG 

I mean neck profile, frets , radius, pups, weight , you know, If its just an SG then buy any old thing.

Neilybob

Creed_Clicks said:

Neilybob said:

I'll leave this here. My 90's Burny SG Junior. Imported from Japan all in for £500. I haven't played a Gibson to compare (maybe I should pop down to Anderton's and do a comparison).

Lights fuse and legs it! 

This! An example of what I was curious about.

What I love most about the junior is having to ride the knobs to go from rhythm to lead as it forces you to learn how to dial in the sound you want. 

Redneck

It's not as if the words "Made in America" are words associated with quality in any endeavour, from cars through to watches.  

Some of the Fenders, Gibsons, Rick-Os I've owned over the years have left a lot to be desired. Others have been superlative.

While some of these Japanese clones aren't necessarily of lesser quality they are often built to a price and this can show with materials, hardware, etc. That said, I've found Japanese quality and finish to generally be far more consistent than on US instruments - they take QC much more seriously.  My Ibanez LP clone was probably the most evenly finished instrument I've ever owned.