I bought a Tonemaster Pro - first impressions, bit longer than I expected(!)

allen

First off, I'm a bit of gear tart so I've got loads of different stuff - pedals, modellers, amps, etc. (in fact, way too much for someone who plays at home 99% of the time) so I'm reasonably experienced enough to compare this to other stuff.

Anyhow, here are my semi organised thoughts:

1. Physical layout, size, etc.



Somewhere in the middle between Quad Cortex and the big floorboard modellers like Helix and FM9. Very handy that it doesn't need a separate power supply - one less thing to worry about. Footswitches are okay, not amazing. These are soft switches (don't click) and I tend to prefer those, but the spring on them is light so it's not a really positive feeling when pressing on them. They are fairly close together and I haven't tried them at a rehearsal so not sure if they are far enough apart for me not to mess up when playing seriously.


2. Workflow etc.

It's pretty obvious that the TMP has got the absolutely easiest patch editing/creation user interface out of all of the modellers. It's actually sometimes a little bit over-simplified as the 'real-world' approach can be a bit slow/clumsy when you are trying to whizz about tweaking your preset. Personally, I'm not convinced that this UI model is best when using a touch screen (e.g. can be tricky to dial in an 'exact' number or very slightly tweak something), but there is no doubt that it is really easy to use. To give you an example in my own experience it took me a little while to get my head around HX Effects, but I can use it easily now and there is absolutely no way that I'm going to get an FM3/9 due to the computer programmer style interface.



I haven't used the touchscreen and rotating knobs very much myself because I have left it on the floor and used my ipad to edit everything. This is one of the killer features that I really wanted, very few high end modellers have a phone/tablet editor that is wireless and pretty much is exactly like the real unit UI. So, for me, I can sit next to my amp and twiddle knobs on the ipad next to me to dial in a sound - bloody excellent and so much easier than either rigging up a laptop (I don't actually have a laptop) or connecting to computer to edit all my presets - or, heaven forbid, endless bending over to the floor with a guitar on your lap. I want to be able to just play and twiddle as the mood takes me. In addition you can even set up footswitch assignments on the ipad - really easy to just do everything.



However, you can tell that the software is new/immature. The ways to set up footswitching, although fairly comprehensive, still don't allow you to do some things (there's no complete snapshot/scenes function yet). Parallel routing, etc. is limited and can only be done in fixed ways so there's a bit of frustration at times. There are a few other bits and bobs not up to the standard of things like Kemper and Quad Cortex (e.g. can't globally remove cabs from one of the outputs if you are going to an on stage real cab while sending another output to FOH).

3. Sounds
Hmm, tricky to say. I have been using it as an effects unit into my amps mostly so not really explored the amp models much. To be honest I have not had a wow moment with it and actually a few things sounded a bit meh. However, after a bit of tweaking I've got quite a few sounds that I really like. It doesn't have the depth of choice of other units (especially Helix/Fractal) which could be okay if the provided effects were very good with plenty of quality, but they are not yet up to the standard that I would expect for a £1k+ modeller. For example, the choice of delays is fairly standard and they don't all have tone controls or modulation. All of that sounds pretty bad, but I have spent several hours playing through it and have really enjoyed the experience - so if you are not concentrating on 'tone' and concentrate on playing it's perfectly fine. I mean, how bad can a modeller be in 2024?

4. Long term support/development
I was (still am?) a bit sceptical about Fender's ability to support a product long-term and to be serious about their commitment to digital. However, since researching it they seem to have recruited people from Line6 and also seem to be delivering software updates fairly regularly since release. Fender employees are very active on TGP/Facebook and Discord so it gives me a very good feeling about future direction and longevity. 

Overall I was planning to give it a try for a week and then decide whether to send it back. So far, I have decided that I wont be sending it back. My judgement is that even if a unit can do amazing sounds, it's pretty useless if you can't get to it without a manual or computer editor. The TMP is flexible enough to do the kind of music I play and easy to use so that it doesn't get in the way of my playing by trying to work out how to adjust something.

Lewy

allen said:

For example, the choice of delays is fairly standard and they don't all have tone controls or modulation. 

I mean they wouldn't, would they? Presumably they've modelled delays where the originals don;t have those functions. I'm assuming the unit has enough horsepower to create a parallel path for a delay and add whatever EQ or modulation you want to it there?

Or are you saying they have modelled delays that should have modulation and tone controls but they've omitted to include them?

allen

Yes, plenty of horsepower for parallel paths although the type/number is limited. So you could run a delay off to one side, 100% wet and then put it through an eq or a modulation, but at that point I feel like I'm working too hard.

It has a mixed approach to modelling. In general most of the effects are a 'model' rather than just the effect (like the Eventide H90). Also Helix has a mixed approach to this where they have a fair few models and then a fair few Line 6 'originals'. 

On the delays on TMP for example you have the following 'models'

2290 (x2)
Boss DM-2
Ibanez Soundtank
EHX Memory Man
Roland RE-201
Echoplex EP-3

But for example, both of the 2290 models aren't in stereo so you have to use a parallel path just to get dual delay. The 2290 model that does ducking has a tone control that doesn't really work. The other model has good tone controls, but then it doesn't do auto-ducking.

They also have a few 'generic' delays in there (more like the Quad Cortex approach) but they haven't loaded those up with features - e.g. ping pong delay doesn't have tone or mod.

My conclusion is that it isn't quite up to the standard of the other modellers out there when you consider these points. Helix has got loads of delays, FM3 also loads of delays, Quad Cortex not loads, but better features than the TMP, Kemper loads of delays with tons of tweakability. That's why I'm banking on them having a solid roadmap and supporting this for the long term. It took Kemper years and years before the delays really got on par with the best modellers so it's reasonable to give Fender some time.

Zapple

Hi @allen did you keep the TMP? And if so, how are you getting on with it after the firmware updates, etc?

Heartfeltdawn

@Zapple he seemed pretty happy with it in May

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/282160/

Zapple

Thanks @Heartfeltdawn!

There's not a lot of discussion on here about the TMP.

I've got one sitting on my desk next to my FM3 and I guess I'm looking for confirmation as to what I'm hearing, which is the TMP with latest firmware is very very good. A lot less tweak-ability than the FM3 but WAY easier to tweak on the fly.

It sounds really good (presets are rubbish as per usual), it took a couple of minutes to get a pretty great sounding SLO patch and it feels good under the fingers. And all the Fender amps are excellent. 

allen

Zapple said:

Hi @allen did you keep the TMP? And if so, how are you getting on with it after the firmware updates, etc?

Yes, I kept it. Bit of a mixed bag really. The effects/drives etc are fine in a band setting and ease of use obviously excellent. but if you listen to the sounds on their own they aren't really up to the quad cortex.

Zapple

Cheers @allen, I'm really enjoying it so far. I actually think the effects are very good.

Not as many as other devices and I can't go under the hood like I can with the FM3 but it's so simple and quick to dial in. Played more than tweaked stuff this week. 

And lastly as an effects pedal board in 4cm I actually think it sounds as good, if not better than, the FM3! All opinion of course ;-)

Digital_Igloo

allen said:

However, since researching it they seem to have recruited people from Line6 and also seem to be delivering software updates fairly regularly since release.

Sorry, just seeing this now.

If you're talking about Jason or Adrian, yep—Jason is immensely talented and a good friend of mine, but he sadly left Line 6 back in 2011. Adrian's also a fantastic guy and we miss him dearly.

Buuut... there's another Line 6-to-Fender guy who repeatedly—falsely—claimed to have "created Helix" to anyone who would listen, including our shared dealer network. Then a year before Stadium's announcement, a Fender employee posted this on the Helix Facebook Group:

"The creator of the Helix left Line 6 to go to Fender and just created the Tone Master Pro. So I wouldn’t hold my breath on any new Helix technology."

Slimy.

fretmeister

That's really pathetic of them.

I wonder if he told a load of porkies to Fender when he was trying to get that job.
Very poor show, and burning bridges is never a good idea.

Also - when's the Stadium Rack getting announced? [/Stuck record]

Digital_Igloo

fretmeister said:

Also - when's the Stadium Rack getting announced?

Maybe never. I mean... it's pretty much fully designed, but I've designed dozens of products that have never seen light of day.

The trick for Stadium Rack to be developed is for people to not just ask "where's the rack?" or even say "I promise I'll TOTALLY buy a Stadium Rack if you build it," but "Hey, here are the specific reasons I feel Stadium Rack will sell more than Helix Rack has" so I can then relay that data to Sales and Finance, who, along with other stakeholders, determine whether a project is approved. And I've asked that last question dozens of times now and have gotten almost zero meaningful feedback, which tells me that most people asking for the rack wouldn't necessarily buy it; they just want the warm fuzzies of knowing it exists. "But here are the reasons racks are great!" Agreed, but that's not what I asked—I need to know why it'd be notably more successful than Helix Rack because that's what the org needs to approve it.

As it stands right now, rack sales are a pretty small fraction of floor unit sales, and we have to pick our battles very carefully. It's not about whether it's a cool product and should therefore exist, it's about whether its revenue would be higher than any other product we could possibly make, and therefore should be prioritized over other boxes.

There are also intangibles, like how influential touring artists generally gravitate toward rack units, but intangible benefits only get you so far.

One multieffect company designed a rack version of their floor modeler but dealers weren't interested so they scrapped it. And we've heard mumblings of another multieffect company making a rack version, but that was years ago and we likely would've seen it by now. Racks just don't sell, unfortunately, which is a bummer, because it's my personal form factor of choice.

fretmeister

I get that - unfortunately I can't give any reasons why the average guitarist would prefer the rack / buy the rack in enough numbers.

I can only say for me a rack fits in my home studio. It doesn't take up unnecessary room like having a full floor unit on a stand, or even mounting it upright in a rack which would take a lot more frontage room.

When gigging I like that the rack is away from the floor and the beer so if something does go wrong I only have to replace the controller.

If the Stadium was small enough I suppose it could go flat into a rack drawer - I've seen some people using the QC like that but I don't know what footcontroller they are using in that circumstance. Or even if they have automated their entire show (urgh).

So unfortunately I can't help with the specifics needed and of course I fully understand that economics has to come first.

Heartfeltdawn

Digital_Igloo said:

Maybe never. I mean... it's pretty much fully designed, but I've designed dozens of products that have never seen light of day.

I'm still hoping the Helix hoverboard is released. 

Zapple

Maybe there will be a Tone Master Pro Rack ;-)

normula1

fretmeister said:

I get that - unfortunately I can't give any reasons why the average guitarist would prefer the rack / buy the rack in enough numbers.

I can only say for me a rack fits in my home studio. It doesn't take up unnecessary room like having a full floor unit on a stand, or even mounting it upright in a rack which would take a lot more frontage room.

When gigging I like that the rack is away from the floor and the beer so if something does go wrong I only have to replace the controller.

If the Stadium was small enough I suppose it could go flat into a rack drawer - I've seen some people using the QC like that but I don't know what footcontroller they are using in that circumstance. Or even if they have automated their entire show (urgh).

So unfortunately I can't help with the specifics needed and of course I fully understand that economics has to come first.

I even have my GR55 on a rack drawer and currently control it with my Helix Rack’s floor controller via MIDI.