Scale choices when a chord is borrowed

Axe_meister

Just wanted to know what are your approaches as to scale choices for improv when a chord is outside of a normal diatonic progression?
Obviously any extensions will point in the right direction.
E.g. you are in a say an E mixolydian sequence, Say in the Key of E going from DMaj7 to E7 then to G which is obviously borrows from a parallel mode, Staying with E as the key centre I  obviously have a number of choices, E Aeolian, E Dorian, E Phrygian, and how would you modulate back to say the DMaj7 again?

digitalkettle

Someone always comes along and tries to ruin your basic premise without answering the question...

I can't get away from this feeling like a D major progression:
Dmaj7 - the I chord
E7 - secondary dominant replacing the A (V chord)
G - the IV chord (wants to resolve to I)

You can feel the pull:
Dmaj7 - xxx222
E7 - xxx434
G - xxx433

Of course, tonal centre can be influenced by the specifics of the progression.

So for me, unless I start to see it differently, the E7 is the interesting chord here...I'm sure I read in my copy of 'Jazz Hacks for Dummies' that you can throw a lydian dominant scale at any surprising 7 chords that pop up...depends how much time you've got: is it a beat or is it four bars? That's not my bag but there are lots of jazz dudes on here that could go to town in this area.

viz

Another challenger to your premise here

You're already suggesting your G chord is minor, but normally when a 1 chord goes to a bIII chord (in bluesy music) it's a major tonality, in which case you'd also have the option of playing G lydian (which preserves the E7th's 6 note, which I prefer), or G major, which has a standard 4 note, and is a departure from your E7 scale.

You could also play G mixolydian (ie G7), or even G Lydian Dominant, which has the raised 4, AND the flattened 7. That flattened 7th destroys the E's major 2nd.

Of course, if you're Dream Theater you'd be doing a G with minor tonality anyway, so fill your boots!

Danny1969

I don't possess the knowledge of viz or digitalkettle so what I tend to do if play some choice notes of the borrowed chord, the third and fifth for example extended from bending up to the one of the borrowed chord or a similar trick. 

This is why I think it's essential to know what chords you are solo'ing over and what notes they contain

stratman3142

The first thing that springs to mind is:

An A major scale (Ionian) over the Dma7 to E7, whilst giving regard to the chord tones. Unless you want to think on each chord, which would then be D Lydian to E Mixolydian. It's the same notes anyway

For the G chord (assuming it's major) I'd just change one note of the scale and play a G instead of a G#. So if I was thinking in terms of an A scale, I'd think 'A Mixolydian' (or you could think of it as G Lydian, or even D major (Ionian)).  It's all the same notes anyway

An A7 might be a good chord to insert after the G, to modulate back to the Dma7, which would be a good fit to the scale I'm already playing over the G chord.

stickyfiddle

I would think about it the other way round. Don’t start with theory of what should be “right”

Far better to think of melodies that work in this full context and play those. Then if you really want to you can work out the underlying theory. 

stratman3142

Danny1969 said:

...This is why I think it's essential to know what chords you are solo'ing over and what notes they contain

This is what I'd do, if hit with something on the fly, wihout having time to do an analysis.

digitalkettle

Theoretical question got a theoretical answer...but, in a practical sense, I think about chords and feel my way around.

If I was composing a solo (which I only seem to do if I'm participating in the forum's SotM), I might go digging but I wouldn't want it to sound too contrived (although it often does ).

Roland

Axe_meister said:

Just wanted to know what are your approaches as to scale choices for improv when a chord is outside of a normal diatonic progression?

Simple - don’t think scales, instead do what @Danny1969 and @stickyfiddle suggest. The impact of a non-diatonic chord is the surprise/tension/dis-harmony that its non-diatonic notes bring. Cherish and use  that impact. 

I’ve seen students focusing on the notes which are common across a chord progression to avoid playing a “wrong” note. That way lies mediocrity. Whereas the interesting solos are those which use the notes which are unique to the chord to emphasise its difference, and draw out those semitone differences from the “safe” notes.

viz

I like what all the above have said with various versions of "play what sounds right" - this is always the first filter. 




(all my theory nonsense is just for those who like a bit of maths )

stratman3142

viz said:

I like what all the above have said with various versions of "play what sounds right" - this is always the first filter. 

(all my theory nonsense is just for those who like a bit of maths )

I had far more natural talent for maths than music . I always like to hear your theory stuff, and you know a lot more than me, so I can learn.

I like all approaches, including going for it. But since I started learning solos by ear in the early days, then started to improvising, I've always felt the need to categorise things I hear, or hit upon by accident, so that I can create a library of reusable information and extend my vocabulary. But that's just the engineer in me.

I can explore these things if people are interested through future SotM challenges.