New guitar- I think the soundhole-mounted electronics have become detached in transit

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Hi everyone,

I ordered a new Fender Paramount Parlor guitar which came today- unfortunately, when I took it out of its case there was a bit of a rattling noise and I think the Fender®/Fishman® Presys VT Plus soundhole-mounted electronics have become detached in transit (or maybe they were already detached). (I say "I think", because there's a protective clear plastic film over the soundhole which prevents me from investigating too much, as I don't want to remove it if it has to be sent back.)

It's new from a retailer, so I'll contact them to see what they say, but I just thought I'd ask on here in case it's an easy fix- it was a very good Black Friday price that I couldn't pass, and if I'm going to keep it and can fix it easily myself that's probably a better idea than giving it two more courier trips around Christmas time. I think I can see what looks like adhesive on one side of the electronics, and I was sort of naively hoping that it might just be a matter of pushing it back on with the existing adhesive and hoping it holds, but I realise it may be a lot more complicated than that!

There's a funny, overbearing resonance when playing, especially the lower-pitched strings and single notes which I think (hope!) is because the electronics are resting against the back of the guitar- or maybe it's the protective film over the soundhole? I don't think there's anything else wrong with the guitar, though I haven't tried the electronics to see if they're working yet- the controls are inside the guitar, behind the protective film, and the pickup might be broken or the volume might just be turned down! I also was a bit iffy about plugging an instrument cable into the guitar, because on the other acoustics I have, the socket was very stiff and I don't want to plug a cable in and then struggle to remove it if it has to be sent back! I also don't have an acoustic amp at the moment- is it safe to plug an acoustic into a valve electric guitar amp? I assume it is, but I figured it's safer to check first.

Here's a pic where hopefully you can see the problem (I can zoom in a lot on my computer, but I'm not sure you can unfortunately!)- that V-shaped matt black bit on the electronics has what I think is adhesive on it and I'm guessing that's the bit that should be stuck to the underside of the guitar's top.



Thanks very much for all your help,
Dave :)
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Comments

  • ICBMICBM Frets: 76501
    Easy to fix - if the glue doesn’t hold by itself, a small amount of superglue will do it.

    It’s safe to plug into a valve guitar amp. Best to use a clean sound obviously.

    I've never seen a new guitar with film over the soundhole before!


    (What I really want to say is that they’ve just done the first step of removing the electronics and throwing them as far away as possible for you, but I probably shouldn’t… ;) )

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

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  • BillDLBillDL Frets: 10698
    edited December 2024
    I've never seen a new acoustic with film over the soundhole either.  I'm not sure if the preamp with rotary controls would be heavy enough to pull the wires enough, but my worry would be if it's been rattling around loose in there it could have tugged the thin wires out at the while plastic connector or elsewhere. I assume it's the OEM model with the battery bag inside the guitar and a combined endpin jack rather than the variant with plastic battery box and jack screwed to the outside of the guitar side.  The weight of the battery rattling around would certainly be enough to pull at wires, but if the battery is an the bag then it might be OK.

    A number of years back somebody asked me to fit a 2nd-hand one he had bought 2nd-hand to his guitar.  It came very much as shown in this other model (Matrix?) I found in an image search:


    From the rubbery glue residue in that boomerang shaped recess I assumed that a piece of foam with one adhesive side had been glued in there and that the adhesive side would have been what was stuck up onto the underside of the soundboard.  I found some suitable hard and thin black foam (a tiny bit thicker than the depth of the recess) with a peel-off self-adhesive side.  I cleaned the plastic with electrical contact cleaner and glued the bit of foam into that recess with Evo-Stik or other brand of solvent contact cement glue and allowed it to dry completely before putting it near the guitar just in case the escaping solvents reacted with the lacquer on the guitar.  I suppose I could probably have stuck it in there with double-sided tape.

    I did a dry fit to line it up, fine sanded the underside of the soundhole where I was going to stick it, then smeared some 2-part epoxy on that area and let it cure completely to make it really hard and smooth before peeling the film off the foam and sticking the preamp into place.

    It must still be holding firm or he would have come back to me to have it reaffixed.

    I don't know what I would do if I was in your shoes.  Peeling off the film from the soundhole would be a normal part of checking that the guitar works with the pickup, but if you then discover a wire has been tugged loose because the preamp wasn't stuck and was rattling loose, then you may be asked why you didn't just send it back.  If this does transpire you could bluff it and say you thought it was left loose to provide you with the choice of fine alignment it in the soundhole and you thought that you had to stick it on yourself.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 76501
    If you just plug it in you’ll know whether it works - assuming the battery is fitted at the factory.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

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  • MartinBMartinB Frets: 282
    I'm surprised at the soundhole film, that's going to modify the sound of the guitar dramatically and make it impossible to judge how it actually sounds until it's removed.
    I removed a Fishman Sonitone with soundhole preamp from my guitar, and the preamp/control unit was simply held with foam adhesive on the V-shaped surface.
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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2539
    Thanks very much everyone, that's great news that it's hopefully not a massive problem! (At least as long as the electronics are still working!) :)
    ICBM said:
    (a) Easy to fix - if the glue doesn’t hold by itself, a small amount of superglue will do it.

    (b) It’s safe to plug into a valve guitar amp. Best to use a clean sound obviously.

    (c) I've never seen a new guitar with film over the soundhole before!


    (d) (What I really want to say is that they’ve just done the first step of removing the electronics and throwing them as far away as possible for you, but I probably shouldn’t… ;) )
    (a) Excellent, that's brilliant news, thanks! It's at this point that I'll say my usual, "I've led a sheltered life" thing and point out that I've never actually used superglue. Hopefully the existing glue will hold it, if not I'll order some superglue and try that.

    (b) Excellent, thanks. 

    (c) Me neither! It took me a minute or two to figure out what was going on when I first opened the case!

    (d) That's what I was thinking... maybe I'd use them if I gigged, and I guess they're handy to have, but I literally never use them. I try them once when I get the guitar just to check they're working. I use the tuner, which is very handy... but of course this guitar doesn't even have a tuner. LOL

    @BillDL Thanks!  :) That was my worry too, that being loose could have damaged the electronics or even something inside the guitar.

    I'm not sure exactly how it's configured as that darn protective plastic film is stopping me from getting in there to see for sure, but it does have a jack socket at the endpin.

    I think mine does have foam still on it, you're quite right, that V-shaped bit you've circled in red is the bit where the adhesive bit is stuck to.

    That's an excellent job you did for your friend, I'm totally in awe of people who know how to do stuff like that. I can just about screw in and out screws. And not always even that competently... :s

    Don't worry, I won't peel off the protective film yet- I emailed the shop last night but haven't heard back yet, it did say they were a bit busy at the moment and might take 3-5 working days. When they get back to me I'll mention what has been said in this thread, and if they're ok with it I'll try plugging it in (with a bit of luck the volume won't be at zero on the preamp controls!), and then try removing the plastic protective film, try the controls on the preamp, and then see if I can reattach the preamp. If I can get it to hold, and the resonance goes away when the protective film is removed and the preamp isn't resting on the guitar's back, and if the preamp isn't damaged and there isn't any other damage to the guitar, I'll most likely keep it.

    I think I probably could take off the protective film and still be ok- as long as I'm ok with keeping it, even if it turns out to be faulty they would still need to rectify that under warranty. But they could refuse to refund, so I think it's safer not to remove it just yet.
    ICBM said:
    If you just plug it in you’ll know whether it works - assuming the battery is fitted at the factory.
    And also assuming the volume isn't set to zero on it- I'm assuming the volume on it can be set to "silent". It also seems to have both an interior mic and a piezo in it, with a blend knob- I could be wrong, but if it were set entirely to one or the other, the other one could be broken and you wouldn't be able to tell that without getting at the controls, either.

    MartinB said:
    (a) I'm surprised at the soundhole film, that's going to modify the sound of the guitar dramatically and make it impossible to judge how it actually sounds until it's removed.
    (b) I removed a Fishman Sonitone with soundhole preamp from my guitar, and the preamp/control unit was simply held with foam adhesive on the V-shaped surface.
    Thanks! :) 

    (a) Yep, that's what I'd have thought too. I'm guessing any shop which is putting it on the wall would remove the film before putting it out for prospective customers to try? I did try a Paramount years ago in a shop just after they'd been released, and it didn't have the protective film, at least as far as I can remember!

    (b) Yep that's what it looks like on mine, too.
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  • BillDLBillDL Frets: 10698
    Maybe they cover the soundholes now to stop scorpions, spiders, etc from crawling in and nesting or laying eggs before or during transit from the Far East.
    The guys at the Geest banana warehouse that used to be in my area all had to wear gauntlets when handling the large stalks of bananas coming in from the Caribbean because of the spiders and scorpions lurking in between them.

    Perhaps it's a stipulation with places like Australia that are desperate to keep out non-native species.  When I used to measure up and order crates in which to pack machinery bound for Australia I had to get certificates to say that the wood had been treated to kill bugs and fungus, and I wasn't allowed to use wood shavings for packaging protection.
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  • BillDL said:
    Maybe they cover the soundholes now to stop scorpions, spiders, etc from crawling in and nesting or laying eggs before or during transit from the Far East.
    The guys at the Geest banana warehouse that used to be in my area all had to wear gauntlets when handling the large stalks of bananas coming in from the Caribbean because of the spiders and scorpions lurking in between them.

    Perhaps it's a stipulation with places like Australia that are desperate to keep out non-native species.  When I used to measure up and order crates in which to pack machinery bound for Australia I had to get certificates to say that the wood had been treated to kill bugs and fungus, and I wasn't allowed to use wood shavings for packaging protection.
    If only the Aussies were so keen on keeping the non indigenous humans out as flora and fauna!  (;
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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2539
    BillDL said:
    Maybe they cover the soundholes now to stop scorpions, spiders, etc from crawling in and nesting or laying eggs before or during transit from the Far East.
    The guys at the Geest banana warehouse that used to be in my area all had to wear gauntlets when handling the large stalks of bananas coming in from the Caribbean because of the spiders and scorpions lurking in between them.

    Perhaps it's a stipulation with places like Australia that are desperate to keep out non-native species.  When I used to measure up and order crates in which to pack machinery bound for Australia I had to get certificates to say that the wood had been treated to kill bugs and fungus, and I wasn't allowed to use wood shavings for packaging protection.
    Wow! I'm just hoping the scorpion didn't crawl in there and they put the protective film over the soundhole to keep it in there...  :s :o =)

    I'm cautiously optimistic that the strange resonance/reverberation is being caused by the electronics resting against the back of the guitar- it came to me that if I sort of leaned forward gently and carefully, that might move the electronics off the back of the guitar and have them hanging freely and hopefully not touching anything to reverberate against. I'm not 100% sure, as it's kind of awkward trying to play while leaning forward, but I think the resonance reduced or even went away when I leaned forward while playing it. Fingers crossed, anyway. I didn't get as far as trying it plugged in, and I still haven't heard from the shop so I'll hold off doing anything about the film until I do.
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  • BillDLBillDL Frets: 10698
    I'm sure that the shop won't be particularly keen on having it returned because they will either have to return it to Fender and then open the packaging on another guitar and check it before sending you a replacement OR re-affix the preamp themselves and (probably) sell it as an ex-demo or customer return at a reduced price.  I suspect they might suggest that you remove the film, adjust the controls, and test the electrics before they make any further decisions.  You might end up being offered a partial refund if the electrics work properly and you are willing to take the responsibility of reaffixing the controls yourself.  Personally I would be inclined to take a partial refund if it all works well.

    I wonder if Fender would be able to supply a replacement self-adhesive foam pad?
    The Fishman website shows that they sell replacement battery bags, clips, and other miscellaneous spares:
    They sell 3 different shaped adhesive pads for different models (Ellipse, Ellipse Aura, and Matrix) BUT your Fishman Presys VT Plus is an OEM model so I presume spares would have to come from Fender.
    https://www.fishman.com/oem-3/#1 (Page 5 of 64 - OEM-SON-GT2 I think)
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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2539
    edited December 2024
    BillDL said:
    (a) I'm sure that the shop won't be particularly keen on having it returned because they will either have to return it to Fender and then open the packaging on another guitar and check it before sending you a replacement OR re-affix the preamp themselves and (probably) sell it as an ex-demo or customer return at a reduced price.  I suspect they might suggest that you remove the film, adjust the controls, and test the electrics before they make any further decisions.  You might end up being offered a partial refund if the electrics work properly and you are willing to take the responsibility of reaffixing the controls yourself.  Personally I would be inclined to take a partial refund if it all works well.

    (b) I wonder if Fender would be able to supply a replacement self-adhesive foam pad?
    The Fishman website shows that they sell replacement battery bags, clips, and other miscellaneous spares:
    They sell 3 different shaped adhesive pads for different models (Ellipse, Ellipse Aura, and Matrix) BUT your Fishman Presys VT Plus is an OEM model so I presume spares would have to come from Fender.
    https://www.fishman.com/oem-3/#1 (Page 5 of 64 - OEM-SON-GT2 I think)
    (a) That's kind of what I'm hoping. If I can get it working myself I basically want to keep it- I got a really good deal on it (I think!), and I can't imagine I'll ever get another one for that kind of money.

    I did try the electrics yesterday- I got tired waiting (still no reply from the shop- I hope I didn't click the wrong option in the contact form that sent it to a much-slower responder, but there was no option for "damaged"!). It seems to be working, as far as I can tell without being able to get at the controls. (And the jack socket was normal tightness, so that was nice too, I had no trouble getting the instrument cable in and out.) So that's nice. As I said, I think it has both a transducer (mic?) and undersaddle (piezo?) pickup with a blend knob, so I'm guessing it's possible that the blend could be set entirely to one or the other, and the one it's not set to might still not be working, but I'm going to tempt fate and say that hopefully that's very unlikely and I'd be very unlucky if that were the case.

    (b) That's a brilliant idea if the existing adhesive has lost its stickiness, I can't believe I didn't think of that! Thanks very much as usual @BillDL ;;; Assuming I can get the existing foam off without breaking the thing, that would be a much handier solution than superglue- I'm a bit iffy about it, as I said I've never used it before and am a bit scared I'll stick my hand to my knee or something stupid and have to live like that for the rest of my life... (!) 

    Or even if you can't get the exact one, I dare say you could buy generic preamp adhesive foam, and cut it to size.
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  • Take the plastic off please. How can you tell if something isn't fit for purpose if you don't use it for that purpose. If something is wrong then there is little proof if the guitar isnt played.
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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2539
    Take the plastic off please. How can you tell if something isn't fit for purpose if you don't use it for that purpose. If something is wrong then there is little proof if the guitar isnt played.
    I agree but the problem is the shop might not! If I can get it sorted easily myself I want to keep it, but I don't want to narrow down my options (i.e. shoot myself in the foot and be unable to return it for a refund) just in case I can't- or in case there's something more serious wrong with it that only becomes apparent when I take the plastic off.

    Still heard nothing from the shop- I think tomorrow is day 5 of the "3-5 working days", so I'll give it until then until I contact them again. 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 76501
    Dave_Mc said:

    I agree but the problem is the shop might not! If I can get it sorted easily myself I want to keep it, but I don't want to narrow down my options (i.e. shoot myself in the foot and be unable to return it for a refund) just in case I can't- or in case there's something more serious wrong with it that only becomes apparent when I take the plastic off.
    Under the distance selling regulations, the buyer has the right to reasonably examine and try the goods in the same way as they would in a shop… which would involve removing the plastic. You still have a full right of return.

    The shop will have to remove it to repair it anyway.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2539
    ICBM said:
    Dave_Mc said:

    I agree but the problem is the shop might not! If I can get it sorted easily myself I want to keep it, but I don't want to narrow down my options (i.e. shoot myself in the foot and be unable to return it for a refund) just in case I can't- or in case there's something more serious wrong with it that only becomes apparent when I take the plastic off.
    Under the distance selling regulations, the buyer has the right to reasonably examine and try the goods in the same way as they would in a shop… which would involve removing the plastic. You still have a full right of return.

    The shop will have to remove it to repair it anyway.
    Yep, you're quite right, it was just in case the shop got awkward.

    Still heard nothing back, I've contacted them again, if I don't hear anything by tomorrow I'm going to remove the film and see how it goes. It's starting to get a bit silly, I've had it for over a week now, I'll be getting close to the 14-day limit if I'm not careful. I know they said they're busy, but over a week is too long- I'd be shocked if they get back to me before tomorrow, and it's 10 days tomorrow!
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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2539
    edited February 10
    Quick update to this (and a couple more questions unfortunately):

    The shop got back to me just before Christmas and was great- basically it was up to me regarding repair/replacement/refund or they'd pay for the repairs.

    I took the plastic off the guitar and the glue (it is glue, not a self-adhesive pad) is dry, it wouldn't stick back itself under its own steam. I think (famous last words!) I can probably do it myself- I looked up Wikihow (I wish I was joking about that) and supergluing seems to be relatively straightforward. Is there any particular type of superglue I should get? (I had a look and I've heard of, but never used, Loctite, but there's an extra strong version, and a mini version, plus the standard version I think.) Will it stick on top of the old glue ok? Wikihow suggested cleaning the surfaces, but I'm thinking water and electronics and acoustic guitars don't mix! I was hoping a quick dust with a microfibre cloth might be good enough.

    After that is it just a matter of squirting some superglue onto the electronics, holding it to the underside of the guitar's top for a couple of minutes, and then it should hopefully hold? I don't have any clamps or anything like that, it didn't look like you needed them though if Wikihow was to be believed.

    Thanks again everyone
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  • BillDLBillDL Frets: 10698
    edited February 10
    What's left sticking to the underside of the soundboard where the electronic enclosure was stuck before?
    A pronounced lump of dried adhesive, or worse a sliver of wood that's now stuck to a clump of dried adhesive on the control enclosure?

    It's hard to imagine why they would choose to glue the plastic enclosure to wood rather than using an adhesive pad, or a "dod" of really sticky gooey stuff that came/comes with some brands of piezo contact transducers that are intended to be stuck to the outside of the guitar.

    Personally I think superglue is not the ideal adhesive for certain scenarios.  Plastic to wood will usually work OK and you would usually be able to chip them apart again if you ever needed to remove the control, but if there's any other type of glue residue and a slightly uneven surface the brittle nature of superglue may not be ideal.  For a much more permanent joint, and one that carries the risk of breaking the plastic or lifting wood should you ever need to remove it, 2-part epoxy resin glue (Araldite) would be my choice.  In your situation, however, I believe I would be cleaning off all glue residue with a razor blade and wiping with meths, then sticking it in place with a very sticky pad.  If the wood on the underside of the soundboard is rough and porous you can sand it and then seal the immediate contact area with a wipe of varnish or superglue that will soak in and provide a smooth surface.

    As to the type of superglue, the more viscous gel version has a longer open time and better filling properties, but it usually isn't as instantaneous a bond as the normal runny variant that sticks your fingers together.

    Curious to see what others recommend here though.
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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2539
    Thanks very much @BillDL ; :)

    There seems to be very little stuck on the underside of the soundboard- a little bit of glue residue but that seems to be it (that's all I can see with my folding mirror and also what I can feel running my hand along it). I don't think any wood has come off.

    What you're saying there for your ideal way to do it does sound like more than I'd ideally be willing to do- I've never done any of this stuff before and I don't want to mess up and kill the guitar!

    Helpfully the battery box/pouch seems to have come off now too.  =) It seems to have a velcro adhesive pad attached to it which still seems to be fairly sticky- at least it's sticking to my fingers, whether that's enough to hold it to the top is another thing. Where does it usually stick to inside the guitar, should it be fairly obvious just by the length of the cable going to it? (I can't believe this has happened too, lol!)
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 76501
    Dave_Mc said:

    Helpfully the battery box/pouch seems to have come off now too.  =) It seems to have a velcro adhesive pad attached to it which still seems to be fairly sticky- at least it's sticking to my fingers, whether that's enough to hold it to the top is another thing. Where does it usually stick to inside the guitar, should it be fairly obvious just by the length of the cable going to it? (I can't believe this has happened too, lol!)
    I can. It's trying to tell you something... you're halfway there now :).

    The battery box is often stuck (badly) to the neck block. One problem is that the velcro can appear stuck very firmly to the wood when you try to pull the battery box off, but over time if the guitar is left upright (eg on a hanger or stand) the glue 'creeps' and the box falls off.

    That's how I got my Gibson Dove, and I fixed it by simply removing the rest of the electrics.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2539
    LOL @ICBM that's one reason (apart from laziness) that I've been a bit slow doing anything about this- I figured if I were really stuck I could just rip it all out!

    You're right about the neck block- now you mention it I saw some glue residue there too and was sort of wondering why, but was too slow to put 2 and 2 together. 

    Yep the guitar was upright, I guess that hasn't been helping matters.

    At least if I know where it's meant to go that's less of a concern, I was worried I wouldn't be able to figure out where it had fallen off.

    I'll think I'll give reattaching the electronics a try before I cut my losses- any thoughts or suggestions about what @BillDL said regarding the type of glue etc.? I think I'm happy to give superglue a try if it'll work ok...

    Thanks again (as usual) :)
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 76501
    To be serious, if you want to re-attach the velcro properly, you will need to get a couple of small screws, preferably the type with a 'built in washer' under the head - I think they're normally called 'flanged head' or something. The real problem is getting them in - there isn't room to use a screwdriver through the soundhole - at least normally. The way I do it is to use a long screwdriver with a magnetised shaft to hold the screws, then hold the handle backwards under the bridge and the shaft under my wrist. It's not easy - either to get the screws in the right place, or to drive them in, but it can be done. The screw heads will bury themselves far enough into the velcro that they don't stop the other half sticking to it firmly.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

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