Whats size monitors and recommendations?

JonnyBgoode

My studio is a tiny 2.4m wide x 2.9m length. I record mainly acoustic guitar, occasionally electric guitar miking up the THR10,  nothing like EDM or dance with heavy bass requirements.

I also use my studio for teaching. It is not acoustically treated at present, although I am about to start placing a few bass traps as I get some resonance boom in the 100-200hz range.  In fact just sitting at my desk and talking (nothing coming out monitors) whilst recording guitar lessons on that Logitech webcam attached to my PC monitor I can hear a boomy resonance at times when I play back the recordings.  Anyway this post is about monitors, not acoustic treatment. But I can't go overboard on the latter as I'll have no space left, and couldn't justify it anyhow.

So.. my Tannoy Reveal monitors are already too big for this space and my desk (140 x 60com) I think(?), and whilst they are angled their nearest edge to the rear wall is just 3cm away, not great with rear ported monitors in this confined space. I am about to install a 10cm Rockwool bass trap panel on the wall behind my PC monitor & speakers so will have even less space, even if I pull the desk away from the wall.

My question is what size monitors to go for, considering the above room and my needs? A pair of used Yamaha HS5s locally are tempting me which in terms of footprint is 4cm less depth and width, 6cm smaller in height. Not bad  space saving but maybe I should go all the way to a very small monitor like the IK Multimedia ILoud Micro?

Budget couple of hundred or so, happy for used. What do you guys think?

JonnyBgoode

JAYJO

Could you get the studio desk from thomman. You could have them sitting on the top and you get a pull out leaf also. Really handy. 

Winny_Pooh

Neumann KH80 and some panels, at least 10cm deep on the back wall facing the desk, perhaps a 5cm one underneath the wall hung guitar.

No need to use depth to treat behind the monitors, maybe a small bit above them to cut down on reflections even more. 

Whistler

Stereo imaging will be nigh impossible with guitars on your right and a window on your left; they will not reflect sound from your monitors equally.

I would not waste money changing your monitors. Deal with the room first - or find a more suitable room or position within that room.

Revolutions

I use Adam A3x monitors for my tiny desk space. They also make for pretty good Spotify listening when I’m working.

Winny_Pooh

Whistler said:

Stereo imaging will be nigh impossible with guitars on your right and a window on your left; they will not reflect sound from your monitors equally.

I would not waste money changing your monitors. Deal with the room first - or find a more suitable room or position within that room.

In my experience the human brain corrects alot, you can get by fine with these mismatches of positioning in applications for recording and mixing basic stuff at home. 

And the monitors absolutely make a difference if that's what you can actually change, and monitoring at low levels works quite well if you're not trying to get perfect polished low end.

JonnyBgoode

Winny_Pooh said:

Neumann KH80 and some panels, at least 10cm deep on the back wall facing the desk, perhaps a 5cm one underneath the wall hung guitar.

No need to use depth to treat behind the monitors, maybe a small bit above them to cut down on reflections even more. 

Thanks - so you think the back wall facing speakers/desk would be the place to start reducing the boominess I experience in my desk area? I thought with bass traps it was important to cover the corners, so I was going to put  bass trap panels across each of those corners behind my desk, top to bottom, (as well as behind the monitor, but if that doesn't need a thick trap all well and good),

Winny_Pooh

Bass is weird. Low frequencies are unidirectional unfortunately but if you can place the speakers right on the wall you can negate some of that bouncing back and foward off a solid wall toward you again.

What is more of an issue in small rooms is when bass (low long waves take a few feet to develop) hit a solid back wall and bounce back toward you and cancel out approaching waves, causing weird varying frequency dependent cancellation at different distances from the listening position. So I'd recommend banging bass traps behind you to start with and thin side panels for early high reflections. 

On the window a wooden slat blind could be a decent diffuser.

koneguitarist

Here’s another question active or passive monitors, does the size of room make a difference which you use? 

spark240

koneguitarist said:

Here’s another question active or passive monitors, does the size of room make a difference which you use? 

Ive found little difference in active or passive in my bedroom studio, that said I now use Yamaha HS7 and some smaller Genelec...both active.

Snap

Yamaha HS5 are good enough and within budget. I've had mine for years without and problems and they are, to my ears, nice and flat, clear and non colouring

Musicwolf

Unfortunately, like so many of us, you have a typical spare bedroom and it is, as near as damn it, a cube with your head positioned dead centre.  Acoustically that's pretty much as bad as it gets and, whilst you can improve things a little with Rockwool panels at the first reflection points, any sort of proper bass trapping is going to take up much of the remaining space.

If you don't already have some - spend the money on some decent headphones (something open backed) in order to check the bottom end.

My room is about the same height and width as yours, but a little longer and symmetrical, and I have Rockwool absorbers at the mirror points (inc ceiling) and across the front corners.  I'm using Neumann KH80's and, over Christmas, I used an MA1 measurement mic and the monitors DSP correction software to 'tune' the system.  Whilst it is much better than it was, having reduced a massive dip at 80-100Hz and flattened a hump at around 125Hz, I still have to sit at a particular point (marked on the floor) in order to mix.  If I move back just a foot or so, then it booms like a bastard.  I continue to double check using headphones.

By all means add the absorbers, just don't expect them to do much below a few hundred Hz even if they are spaced off the wall, and don't even think about foam (it will make things worse).  It will never be a great mixing room (and neither will mine) but that shouldn't stop you from making good music in there.

JonnyBgoode

Musicwolf said:

If you don't already have some - spend the money on some decent headphones (something open backed) in order to check the bottom end.

(snip)

By all means add the absorbers, just don't expect them to do much below a few hundred Hz even if they are spaced off the wall, and don't even think about foam (it will make things worse).  It will never be a great mixing room (and neither will mine) but that shouldn't stop you from making good music in there.

Thanks. Just wondering, in a small acoustically poor space like this do you think small monitors would make the slightest difference (smaller bass cones pushing less air?) which is what I originally was getting at. 

octatonic

JonnyBgoode said:

Musicwolf said:

If you don't already have some - spend the money on some decent headphones (something open backed) in order to check the bottom end.

(snip)

By all means add the absorbers, just don't expect them to do much below a few hundred Hz even if they are spaced off the wall, and don't even think about foam (it will make things worse).  It will never be a great mixing room (and neither will mine) but that shouldn't stop you from making good music in there.

Thanks. Just wondering, in a small acoustically poor space like this do you think small monitors would make the slightest difference (smaller bass cones pushing less air?) which is what I originally was getting at. 

Are you going to be releasing any of this music?
If not then get what you can afford and don't worry.

If you are releasing it then just do the final mix in a proper studio, and/or have someone like me mix it for you (in my studio).

On room modes etc:
You have to measure the room and find out where the problems are, which isn't hard but for some reason people are hesitant to do it.

Follow this: https://gikacoustics.co.uk/room-eq-wizard-tutorial/

Re smaller cones: in theory the smaller the monitor the lighter the bass, the less you have to worry about bass interacting in unhelpful ways.
The downside is you aren't hearing the fun bit of audio- the bass.
If you can't hear it, how can you mix it?

There are a load of best practices when it comes to room design and approaching a mix.
Learning those and then figuring out which ones you pay attention to and which ones you ignore is very much a personal thing.

For instance, I live in a rural area and I wanted a good sounding room but I don't give a fuck about isolation.
So I have a great sounding room with almost no sound proofing.
If I lived in a flat above other people then I'd make different choices.

Products like DAD SPQ, Trinnov (or at the cheaper end, Sonarworks) are very helpful at fine tuning if you don't want to or can't spend a lot on room acoustics. They don't make a bad room turn into a world class facility, but no one should expect them too. In my space SPQ and the Trinnov give me a few extra percent of accuracy in a room that is already reasonably flat.

JonnyBgoode

octatonic said:

Are you going to be releasing any of this music?

*Good* question, reality check, no. My gigging and music releasing days are behind me and I don't mix/master for anyone else. My studio is just for teaching (inc. via Zoom as mentioned) and for recording/uploading stuff to Youtube but that's all covers, my channel isn't monetised and its more of a hobby thing than a pro channel.

Follow this: https://gikacoustics.co.uk/room-eq-wizard-tutorial/

Re smaller cones: in theory the smaller the monitor the lighter the bass, the less you have to worry about bass interacting in unhelpful ways.

The downside is you aren't hearing the fun bit of audio- the bass.
If you can't hear it, how can you mix it?

re GIK Acoustics, have now been through the room quote/consultation process with them, the bill comes to about 750 quid just to make some kind of improvement-  corner bass traps, ceiling and right hand wall panels (and their view was all or nothing). In honesty I cant justify that at the moment, though if circumstances do change I would go back to them.

Interesting about the speaker cone size, it sounds like it might actually help to have smaller monitors to help reduce boom --when I am simply playing music in my studio or teaching online for example -  but when I do mix things go for some open backed headphones as @Musicwolf ; suggested (mine are closed back). As you point out, this isn't commercial release stuff after all.

Thanks for your input @octatonic ;

octatonic

JonnyBgoode said:

octatonic said:

Are you going to be releasing any of this music?

*Good* question, reality check, no. My gigging and music releasing days are behind me and I don't mix/master for anyone else. My studio is just for teaching (inc. via Zoom as mentioned) and for recording/uploading stuff to Youtube but that's all covers, my channel isn't monetised and its more of a hobby thing than a pro channel.

Follow this: https://gikacoustics.co.uk/room-eq-wizard-tutorial/

Re smaller cones: in theory the smaller the monitor the lighter the bass, the less you have to worry about bass interacting in unhelpful ways.

The downside is you aren't hearing the fun bit of audio- the bass.
If you can't hear it, how can you mix it?

re GIK Acoustics, have now been through the room quote/consultation process with them, the bill comes to about 750 quid just to make some kind of improvement-  corner bass traps, ceiling and right hand wall panels (and their view was all or nothing). In honesty I cant justify that at the moment, though if circumstances do change I would go back to them.

Interesting about the speaker cone size, it sounds like it might actually help to have smaller monitors to help reduce boom --when I am simply playing music in my studio or teaching online for example -  but when I do mix things go for some open backed headphones as @Musicwolf ; suggested (mine are closed back). As you point out, this isn't commercial release stuff after all.

Thanks for your input @octatonic ;

Happy to help.
You can trust GIK- yes they are trying to sell you stuff but they don't suggest things that aren't needed.
I spent 3.5k with them on my current room and they were sensible about their suggestions which mostly correlated with the acoustician I used.

£750 is a lot but they are reusable and a quality product.

Also look at Sonarworks for room correction.

digitalscream

For what it's worth, I had those exact Tannoy Reveal monitors for years. I've recently moved to KRK Rokit 5 G2s, and...honestly, they're just plain better. The hard-wired power saving is a constant irritation, but there's much more definition in the low end and equal detail in the mid-range.

This could be a function of the amp I've been using with the Tannoys (a Denon hi-fi amp set to flat), but I don't think so.

Axe_meister

IK also have a room correction solution I hardware rather than an output bus plug in. So you get room correction from any sources I to the monitor not just the DAW.