Are older Wireless units on the 854/856mhz frequencies uesless now ?

Moltisanti

I'm looking at wireless IEM systems and they are pricey, but there are older Shure PSM units available for not much dosh but on the older 800 mhz frequencies.

Are these units un-usable now, or can you just crack on and not give a shit about frequencies and licenses etc ?

vasselmeyer

Weren't some frequencies opened up to be licence free? I have a fairly basic LD Systems MEI100G2 which gives me bands of 823-832 Mhz and 863-865 Mhz which are license-free. I'm just gigging in pubs and small clubs and it has been faultless for the last five years of use. I've never had any dropout or crosstalk with my bandmates' systems and I've certainly never had any other interference from external sources (obligatory Spinal Tap reference).

My LD Systems unit is still being sold and is advertised as license-free.

Moltisanti

according to OFCOM:

Licence-exempt

The ranges 173.8 - 175 MHz and 863 - 865 MHz and 2400 - 2483.5 MHz can be used without a Licence subject to the requirements of The Wireless Telegraphy (Exemption) (Amendment) Regulations 2006. These ranges are also used by other low power equipment so can be subject to interference.

But the older units (like Shure PSM600) are 854.900 or 856.175 which is outside of this window, so are they now illegal ?

shufflebeat

Yes.

vasselmeyer

shufflebeat said:

Yes.

Why?

shufflebeat

vasselmeyer said:

shufflebeat said:

Yes.

Why?

Because the govt. passed a law that said (the right to broadcast on) those frequencies belonged to them and certain people could use them under licence. We don’t wantt to pay for that licence so we have to stick to ch70 (863-865MHz) if we want to avoid paying for a licence and be legal or ch38 if we’re prepared to take our chances with all the other ch38 licence holders or we could pay for an on-site exclusive licence at some other frequency bands.

Canford’s take on it:

https://www.canford.co.uk/TechZone/Article/UKLegalRadioMicFrequencies

vasselmeyer

I didn't know that, but if I set our gear to use 823_832, realistically, if I'm playing down at the Dog and Duck on a Saturday night, who's going to ask to see my license?

Danny1969

vasselmeyer said:

I didn't know that, but if I set our gear to use 823_832, realistically, if I'm playing down at the Dog and Duck on a Saturday night, who's going to ask to see my license?

Doing live sound I see these channels in use constantly with older Senn  G1 and G2 stuff. That stuff was so well built and reliable that people have used it for nearly 20 years. I have some G2 stuff myself and it still gets used in certain places. In theatres and real venues you do need to play the game but in a pub you will be fine in my experience. 

maltingsaudio

Danny1969 said:

vasselmeyer said:

I didn't know that, but if I set our gear to use 823_832, realistically, if I'm playing down at the Dog and Duck on a Saturday night, who's going to ask to see my license?

Doing live sound I see these channels in use constantly with older Senn  G1 and G2 stuff. That stuff was so well built and reliable that people have used it for nearly 20 years. I have some G2 stuff myself and it still gets used in certain places. In theatres and real venues you do need to play the game but in a pub you will be fine in my experience. 

Provided that pub is not in the centre of London or any major city.!

vasselmeyer

I'm still curious. What would happen if I used one in a city?

shufflebeat

Dropouts, as other users mangle your signal with their broadcasts, which, because your system isn’t a digital TV (or whatever) receiver, will just show up as background noise.

You should be aware, if your beautiful tones show up on either emergency services systems or interrupting someone with an exclusive licence you might just get a tap on the shoulder and a large basket of consequences.

delorean

A friend of mine has a Shure PSM200 and it's been set to 842MHz since the day he bought it.  He's been using it like that for about 15 years for pub, club and festival gigs, and I've he's never had a problem - nor has anyone asked for proof of license.

vasselmeyer

I'm beginning to see. However, if my IEMs can use bands of 823-832 Mhz and 863-865 Mhz which are license-free, then it's going to be my problem rather than anyone elses? No emergency services will use license free bands...they'll have specific frequencies reserved for them. I'm assuming that "License-free" means free for all to use.

shufflebeat

To be clear, 823-832MHz is part of the shared licence bandwidth, not the licence free:

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/spectrum/radio-equipment/shared/

shufflebeat

delorean said:

A friend of mine has a Shure PSM200 and it's been set to 842MHz since the day he bought it.  He's been using it like that for about 15 years for pub, club and festival gigs, and I've he's never had a problem - nor has anyone asked for proof of license.

I know someone who drove around for a significant length of time without a full driving licence and, as a result, with no valid insurance and I… I mean he… was never pulled.

Proof positive… of something.

mike257

vasselmeyer said:

I'm beginning to see. However, if my IEMs can use bands of 823-832 Mhz and 863-865 Mhz which are license-free, then it's going to be my problem rather than anyone elses? No emergency services will use license free bands...they'll have specific frequencies reserved for them. I'm assuming that "License-free" means free for all to use.

The license free range (863-865) is exactly that - free to use for anyone. 

Frequencies outside of those bands are specifically licenced for other uses. Some are digital TV transmission, some are for mobile network carriers, some for emergency services. There's a range for licenced walkie talkies. There's all sorts sitting across the radio spectrum. 

In all likelihood, nobody is going to knock on your door, but the legality is that OFCOM can seize the radio equipment and anything it's connected to, and you can be liable for a pretty substantial fine. 

If you want to know what's used for what purpose, OFCOM .have this nifty colour coded diagram of the whole spectrum, and you can click on each section for more detail on what it's used for. 

https://static.ofcom.org.uk/static/spectrum/map.html

shufflebeat

mike257 said:

vasselmeyer said:

I'm beginning to see. However, if my IEMs can use bands of 823-832 Mhz and 863-865 Mhz which are license-free, then it's going to be my problem rather than anyone elses? No emergency services will use license free bands...they'll have specific frequencies reserved for them. I'm assuming that "License-free" means free for all to use.

The license free range (863-865) is exactly that - free to use for anyone. 

Frequencies outside of those bands are specifically licenced for other uses. Some are digital TV transmission, some are for mobile network carriers, some for emergency services. There's a range for licenced walkie talkies. There's all sorts sitting across the radio spectrum. 

In all likelihood, nobody is going to knock on your door, but the legality is that OFCOM can seize the radio equipment and anything it's connected to, and you can be liable for a pretty substantial fine. 

If you want to know what's used for what purpose, OFCOM .have this nifty colour coded diagram of the whole spectrum, and you can click on each section for more detail on what it's used for. 

https://static.ofcom.org.uk/static/spectrum/map.html

That’s a great link, I’d not seen before and will study later.

It does seem to suggest the licence-exempt section goes up beyond 865MHz to about 876, which I’ll need to work out.

vasselmeyer

Reading around the subject, I think I have my answer on continued use of our band's IEMs. The following came from Ofcom's website at https://www.ofcom.org.uk/spectrum/radio-equipment/licence-exempt-radio-use/:

"Ofcom is required to exempt radio stations, equipment or apparatus from the need to hold a wireless telegraphy licence where their use is not likely to involve any undue interference to other legitimate use of radio spectrum. We do this by making Regulations detailing the particular technical requirements which equipment must meet in order to not require a licence. As the spectrum is available to anyone using compliant equipment, licence exemption does not provide users with any form of protection from other users. Users should be aware that there may be heavy sharing at certain locations and the ability of equipment to withstand interference may depend on its design, quality and robustness. Ofcom has no powers to regulate the quality of such devices if they comply with the minimum international standards."

Therefore, I can carry on using my properly designed gear which uses those portions of the license free spectrum, but if there's a problem with interference (for example, getting something else other than our sound in my ears), then it's my problem. There are no requirements on me to declare the use of these to anyone, but it's probably good manners to provide bigger venues with the narrow bands we're using, or ask them which of the bands we're free to use in their environments.

Keefy

On a theatre gig tonight and one of the venue staff was checking that all our IEM setups were legal. I got my licence out to show him.