Helix Native - Clean Fender Tones - Output too Low

UnclePsychosis

Hello

I'm not convinced this is a "fault" but it is weird (to me) and I'm gathering opinions.

I have my PC hooked up to an Komplete Audio 6 interface, which feeds a pair of iLoud Mikro monitors (bloody great speakers by the way). This setup is more than capable of blowing my head off volume wise when listening to music etc.

I have recently been messing around with Helix Native more and more and I've noticed that the Fender clean tones are spectacularly quiet. I like "clean" cleans - actual cleans - and I'm basically trying to recreate the way I use my (real) Princeton Reverb - amp clean, then a boost or overdrive to add breakup/grit.

Anyway, to get "clean" cleans on the Helix Fender models you need to turn the drive down, often to somewhere between 1 and 2. I find this sounds really pleasant... but when I do this the output volume is pitiful. I find myself maxing out the amp model Ch. Volume to 10, then needing to add something stupid like 24dB of gain post amp model - usually by some combination of the level on the speaker block, a separate gain/volume block, and also the master output gain. Even with all this extra gain, I find myself turning my Komplete Audio volume "up" to compensate even further. This seems to happen with all of the classic fender clean amp models - the princeton, deluxe reverb, super reverb, bassman, even the twin!

Using other amp models doesn't require anywhere near as much "clean volume boost" to help me hear myself and in fact this is one of my annoyances - when faffing about trying different amps I'm at risk of creating unbelievably loud noises by accident when selecting a different amp type. Another downside is that having to add so much (clean) gain to the chain is that any electrical noise etc gets amplified and this is a pain. I also find that when I do all of this and add an overdrive model in front of the amp model then the volume seems to get a lot louder a lot quicker than I might expect... This just makes everything a faff!

Now this is a thing that @JohnCordy has done videos on so I don't think this is a user fault - but does

1) anyone else recognise this?

2) anyone have any better tips for managing it?

3) are the hardware helix units also prone to this? I only have access to Native right now but I do slightly fancy buying an LT so I can cut my PC out of the loop...

Guess I'm keen also to hear from @Digital_Igloo to hear if there's any magical tips...

Heartfeltdawn

Start with the KA6 settings. I'm going to presume you're using the instrument DI connection and you've got the gain knob fully counterclockwise. 

Now you might have seen the recent stuff with Jason Sadites talking about input gain on audio interfaces. I'm not sure where the spreadsheet came from but it listed some audio interfaces, their maximum input volume in dBu, and what you should set the plugin input level to within Helix Native. 



I added in the KA6 and Axe One. For the KA6 MK II, the maximum input volume is 13.2 dBu so Helix Native should be set to 1.7dB. Does it make a difference? Yes. I've tried this with the KA6 MK II and the Axe One. See how it goes with you. 

I'll have a fiddle with the Fender models tomorrow. 

***that graphic is readable if you open it in a new tab**

UnclePsychosis

Thanks for that @Heartfeltdawn

I found similar settings last year but the KA6 wasn't on it.

For what it's worth I have the older silver model of the komplete audio, not the newer black one.

From memory (I'm on a train) I am using Input 1, set to Instrument, with the gain knob at 12 oclock (i.e. about halfway). I then have the input gain on the Helix Native input monitor block (or whatever that's called) set to about +9dB - found that via the old method of "strum the guitar really loud and adjust the gain until you peak out around -3dB on the input monitor".

So, I'm certainly willing to try what you suggest but turning the hardware knob all the way counter clockwise and setting the helix gain to 1.7dB is going to massively reduce my input level I suspect.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Heartfeltdawn

OK, the KA6 Mk 1 has a Maximum Volume Input of 13dBu. Using the spreadsheet I mentioned earlier, that says instrument gain at 0 on the interface and then adjust the Input within Native to 1.5. The input level will reduce but I found that is a good thing when using different bits of kit. When I first bought the LT in 2020, I picked up Native as it was £99. It frustrated me that things sounded different using Native with my then NI KA2 interface compared to using the LT with line outs to the interface hooked up to monitors. Then the info about different input levels between devices came out and it did make sense. 

The KA2 has an MVI on 10dBu meaning Native should set to -1.5dBu. 

Helix has an MVI of 11dBu meaning Native should be set to 0dBu.

KA6 has an MVI of 13.2dBu meaning Native should be set to 1.7dB. 

So when you've got a 3.2dB range there on the three bits of kit I was/am using, it's no wonder I was going a bit bonkers and doubting my ears, my brain, and my knees (which are useless so there is every reason to doubt my knees). 

Now the amp issue you mention: playing into the KA6 with instrument gain fully counterclockwise and Native set at 1.7dB, I'e got the Hiwatt with stock cab testing against the US Princess with stock cab. Both have drive at 4, channel volume at 10, master volume at 10. 

Hiwatt: -6.02
Us Princess: -5.72dB

So I'm not seeing a big variation in volume there. 

I have however had 30 minutes of fun using the Princeton into the Hiwatt cab with the OCD out front

UnclePsychosis

Ok, I'll try that later.

I don't see, however, how it's going to result in anything other than completely inaudible output from Native.

It seems really bizarre that if I listen to YouTube or mp3s via media player that the volume is oppressively loud, but when I open Helix Native I need to crank the volume up massively - either via helix native or via the hardware interface volume knob just in order to be heard at all.

Heartfeltdawn

What I'm talking about here is getting the input leveld right for your audio interface so the KA6 with Native levels match the levels if you were just using the Helix LT. Yes, it's early as you haven't got an LT but early birds and worms etc. 

Now the level within Helix... I've just set my interface to be like yours: gain at 12PM, Helix Input set to +6dB. Dropped in the JC-120 amp+cab, drive is set to 1, Channel Volume and Master set to 10. Guitar is an Epi IBG 335, stock low powred pickups. 

End result: DISTORTO JAZZ CHORUS-OH! Clipping like shit in Native and clipping Reaper too. 

Switch to the Twin normal (drive 2, channel and master volume at 10): not clipping as easily as the JC but it's still clipping within Native and Reaper. 

So this is all puzzling. I've tried the double choc Kit Kat Chunky for the first time as well and am very disappointed. 

Heartfeltdawn

UnclePsychosis said:

I have my PC hooked up to an Komplete Audio 6 interface, which feeds a pair of iLoud Mikro monitors (bloody great speakers by the way). This setup is more than capable of blowing my head off volume wise when listening to music etc.

Playing stuff within Windows is a bit all over the place. Using Driving South by the Stone Roses, I'm playing one instance at max volume in Windows Media Player and one instance on Youtube at max volume. Both of those apps then have their volume in the Volume Mixer reduced to 25%. As you can see, there's quite a difference when you look at the grey output bar for each app. 

UnclePsychosis

OK, here's tonight's findings @Heartfeltdawn ;. 

I reset all my patches etc and started again from scratch. I set the volume level of my speakers/KA6 to "ooh, thats a bit on the loud side" using windows media player and some punk rock. 

1. With the (hardware) gain knob on the Komplete Audio 6 set all the way counter clockwise I get zero input level at the input in Helix Native regardless of where I set the (software) input gain in Helix Native. Are you absolutely, positively sure you mean "all the way COUNTERclockwise? Because that seems to be "off". 

2. After that, I set the (hardware) gain knob on the KA6 to twelve o'clock and the (software) input gain in Native to +1.7 dB. 

3. I then added a 4x12 WhoWatt cab to the end of the chain and left all its settings on default. I then tried a variety of different amp blocks into this cab:

Starting with the US Princess on its default settings, the output was only barely audible above my guitar strings. So I turned the Ch. Vol up to 10 - bit better. So I added about 7 dB of gain to the output block in Helix and got it to "not going to annoy anyone else" volume. 

Switching to the WhoWatt amp model, on its default settings, the sound level was "a bit" louder than the US Princess. 

Switching to the Super Reverb / Deluxe Reverb / Bassman models --- on the default settings the volume roughly matches the Princeton. Turning the drive down so that they get truly clean (i.e. down to about 1.5 on the drive level aka roughly '2' on the real amp which is where I'd run one for reals) and they're almost completely inaudible unless I also crank the Ch. Vol to 10 --- even then they're "quiet" compared to the HiWatt and would need more gain added at the output block to be satisfactory. 

Switching to the Orange Rocker, and the volume is "loud enough to get my wife to come running from the next room to ask what the fuck is going on" loud. 

So it seems to me that the overall output volume from the amp models is hugely dependent on both the amp model, which is a bit annoying because it means when demoing different amps I'm going to have to play with the amp drive, the amp channel volume, AND the output block gain volume. This seems really counterintuitive to me as someone who has used hardware multifx in the past but maybe this is just the reality of modern day amp modelling in VSTs? Do the hardware helix units do this? I don't remember the stomp being like this. 

The other thing I'm left confused by is where I want the input level monitor to actually sit. The settings I was using tonight seemed really, really low when viewed using the helix input monitor. 

ewal

I use a HX Stomp XL (dabbled in Helix VST land too) and I do find amp model levels very inconsistent.I agree that the Fender models that I try and use - Deluxe and Twin - don't really behave like I thought they would. I was expecting the Twin to be a big ballsy Fender clean sound with loads of headroom. It's anything but. As you say the gain needs to be minimal to avoid a not very nice break-up. Much prefer models like Archetype Clean (probably the closest thing I've got to a set and forget reliable clean that takes gain pedals well), Cali Texas, WhoWatt and MoonBrt for clean pedal platform type duties.

ewal

The Helix is so good in many ways and I've invested way too much time in to it now to jump ship to another modeller, but I sort of miss the simplicity and unobtrusiveness of my American Sound. There's an 'amp sim' which is very straightforward to use and get good results from quickly!

GrahamG

I don't have a Helix or a Fender Amp & know little about them, but i watched a Y/T vid (i think John Cordy ?) a couple of days ago & he was discussing this low level on Fender clean Amps in Helix, maybe worth having a look at ?

Heartfeltdawn

UnclePsychosis said:

1. With the (hardware) gain knob on the Komplete Audio 6 set all the way counter clockwise I get zero input level at the input in Helix Native regardless of where I set the (software) input gain in Helix Native. Are you absolutely, positively sure you mean "all the way COUNTERclockwise? Because that seems to be "off". 

2. After that, I set the (hardware) gain knob on the KA6 to twelve o'clock and the (software) input gain in Native to +1.7 dB. 

Yes. This is what the recent discussions over audio interface gain levels were talking about. If you're whacking the gain on the interface, then you're effectively using the audio interface as a boost pedal into the amp rather than using the amp gain as it is modelled. If that sound works for you then keep using it. 

I don't know why you're getting zero input level on the KA6 Mk 1 gain set to fully counterclockwise. I'm absolutely not getting that with the KA6 Mk II. I'm going guitar into Input 1 (set in Instrument), the gain is set fully counterclockwise, and I've got a blank patch in Native with the input set to 0dB. I'm getting a signal through. Boost Native to 1.7dB, I'm getting a louder signal now. 

So with Native set to 1.7dB and gain fully counterclockwise on the KA6 Mk II, I'm hitting the strings as hard as I can and flicking between these two amp models. 

US Princess and cab with no tweaks: -10.7dB

Orange Mandarin and cab with no tweaks: -11.6dB

Now I do agree that the amp volume is inconsistent between models. It's a gripe I have with Tonex as well. But your interface itself is curious. Will drop you a PM.