Toto at NEC. Wasted my money.

roberty

I've been to gigs like that where all I can hear is sub bass. Then I record a bit on my phone and listen to it later and it's crystal clear because the all the sub has been shelved off 

prowla

I've been disappointed every time I've been to a big/stadium venue:

• Linkin Park at the O2 - up at the top tier, the sound system wasn't working properly and there were ant-sized figures on the stage.
• Rush at the O2 - was in a box with free beer and food, but was so detached from the performance I got more enjoyment from watching the subsequent video on TV.
• Pearl Jam at the O2 - I was somewhere on the left and it was just OK.
• Bryan Adams/Extreme/Squeeze at the old Wembley - the sound was awful, expecially Extreme.
• Led Zeppelin at Knebworth - we were some way back and there was a noticeable lag between screens and sound.

Apart from being able to say I was there and maybe buying a T-shirt, I'd rather stay at home and watch TV.

For balance, I've had some mediocre experiences at theatre-sized venues too, but they were much less frequent:

• Marilyn Manson at Brixton - the sound was completely unintelligible; you just had to accept there was something loud going on and some blokes prancing about on a stage.
• The Mars Volta at some venue in London - the vocals weren't coming through the PA, but the musicianship was good.
  

Brad

Just got back from the Manchester gig and I had the same experience. The mix was terrible, Steve was too quiet, the percussionist must have been for show… but then I was sat at the back… The ticket cost me £10, I only knew 3 songs and it was great to see Lukather live, so I can’t really feel cheated. 

Jeff Beck’s Strat sounded incredible though and really cut through the mix. 

ToneControl

my worst experience was I bought a centre-of front of circle seat to see King Crimson at the Liverpool Empire.
here's my complaint letter:

Where I was sitting in this concert, the sound was awful

The saxes and flutes were twice as loud as any other instrument, and had a weird mid-range spike, it actually hurt my ears, from the first flute section when only the flute was playing.

When I went outside my ears were ringing, and I could not properly hear my wife speaking in our car

The vocals were way too loud, and distorted with a mid-range spike.  For most of the show, all I could hear was drums, vocals and sax/flute, and most of those were distorted and too loud

I was just left of centre in the circle, and the vocals sounded entirely from the left even though he was to the right of the stage.

The bass and stick playing was almost completely inaudible in the first half. Seriously, the effect was similar to when listening on a small bluetooth speaker, I could only hear any bass at all during quiet sections where other instruments were silent.

When it was quiet, I could just about tell that the bass was being played, if I closely watched his hands and listened hard

In the second half – there was improvement, bass still a little quiet, but audible. Sax and vocals no longer ridiculously loud, but still not anything like a clear sound

 

After contacting the bands management, I have this information from them:

"Liverpool FOH Audio

Dear All, I have been communicating with Chris Porter, King Crimson FOH Sound Engineer. This is what he told me. "With regard to the balcony, when we arrived we were advised by the Promoter that the whole balcony was not sold. With regard to volume. The peak level at FOH in Liverpool was 101.2.db. Average level of around 95db. This is strange, as there were very many compliments on the sound from veterans of Crimson tours. One chap who has seen 35 shows in the past year said it was the best sound to date. I have seen and spoken to him on almost all of those occasions." So we apologise for any differences in sound quality in the hall, every effort is made to accommodate the different areas of seating in a venue, but as Chris has said if the promoter told him that the balcony wasn't sold,that's the information one can only work with. I know Chris and his colleagues check the sound from various locations around the venue before the audience comes in, during soundcheck, and also as the performance is in progress, and tweaks are made where they can."

ToneControl

I try to avoid the arena gigs.

Some have been OK, but usually hard to get the vibe from high up.
U2 did well at handling it with their huge lit-up platform thing.
Mayer was not bad, I remember a Sheryl Crow one that was too distant, first time I saw a Matchless amp

I like smaller gigs, or something like the Manchester Apollo

tbh, I prefer to watch films at home to avoid the distractions, and the same for arena gigs - if you can get a bluray of it, it's probably going to be more immersive for me

bloodandtears

I was at Manchester last night.. sat at the back, block 110..  and whilst I agree Warren's conga work was buried I also wouldn't expect percussion to be front and centre..  the backing harmonies were a little lacking at times, mainly in the falsetto register..  again probably unavoidable..  no sub-bass muddiness for me..

Luke and Joe are class, and full of charisma..

Dennis Atlas is a talent for sure...

Greg, Warren, John and Shannon are simply excellent..

It's been said before but a gathering such elite musicians play pop rock music is hard to find these days..

.. oh and I enjoyed Christopher Cross' set too, lots of classics.. would have liked to hear Minstrel Gigolo though and the solo's were far too "wet" with an echo delay for my liking.

£47 a ticket... overall a great night imho..   even with Luke's mistakes..

Kebabkid

Just back from the Wembley gig and it was fantastic and probably the best I've seen Toto and I've seen them many times since the 80's.

The sound was good and clear from the floor and friends at the back and sides recorded some very good footage where it also sounded very good. I said it earlier in the post, I've seen them quite a few times at the Hammersmith Odeon and other venues, like RAH, Brixton Academy and Chelsea Hospital and I wasn't expecting the sound to be so good as I don't like Wembley Arena (OVO), but it was great and I believe it was their first time playing there. A bonus to our evening was being upgraded to better seats down the front because Toto had put in either an additional mixing desk or their own mixing desk in front of the usual large, central mixing desk area and that occupied our seats - thank you Wembley.

Christopher Cross was a pleasant listen and his band were great with a superb saxophonist, drummer and piano player, but sadly the bass sound was lost and it's what I've experienced at Wembley on several occasions. His vocals were a little weak, but then again, he never had the best and strongest of voices, but his guitar work was good (Tom Andersons and Divided by 13 amps), as were the tunes, but as @bloodandtears said, the delay mix was way too high on his guitar solos. No such issue with Luke's sound, although he had 2 momentary guitar issues which were fixed very quickly and it was nice to see him rock out on a couple of songs with one of Jeff Beck's Strats.

Toto delivered a great set with my highlight being songs from the Isolation album, which they rarely do as who's going to sing the late, great Fergie F's parts? Well, tonight it was courtesy of young gun and newbie, Dennis Atlas. He absolutely nailed the vocals on 'Carmen' and 'Angel don't cry' as well as providing superb backing vocals and great keyboard work all night. The rest of the band - Shannon Forrest is a demon drummer and he's played with many including Donald Fagen, a lot of Nashville artists, as well as Taylor Swift, and we should all know Greg Phillinganes' pedigree from Michael Jackson, Clapton, Stevie Wonder and other sessions. Warren Ham (Ringo Starr All Star Band and others) is the 'Swiss Army Knife' of the band handling backing vocals, percussion, sax, flute and harmonica with John Pierce (Huey Lewis and others) being solid and you could hear his bass sound, which was in stark contrast to the support.

Whether you like the music or not, it's an absolute joy, pleasure and privilege to see musicians of this calibre and I'm sorry for the chaps here that didn't experience a good sound at the other gigs. My son is young, but a big fan and he broke his 'Toto Cherry' tonight and thought they were superb, as did I. Who knows if we'll ever see them play over here again, but I hope so, and I think my experience tonight matches that of my pal, @welshboyo

 

welshboyo

Couldn’t agree more @Kebabkid I thought they were brilliant as well and like you I’ve seen them many many times before.

I think there’s life in the old beast yet…I hope I’m right

joneve

Missed this thread (mostly because I don't venture into the LIVE forum )...but I was at the NEC on Sunday with my Dad and Sister. 

We were side stage right (behind Dennis and Greg P) and the sound was mostly great where we were. A bit muddied at times, but I'd expect that from where were sat to be fair. 

Last time I saw them was the Falling In Between tour at the Apollo which was fucking ace, but Sunday was just as good. Dennis Atlas is something else - great addition to the band. 

Worst part about the NEC is the car parks being fucking miles away and paying £15 for the privilege of parking there. Robbing cunts. 

Kebabkid

Dave Gilmour was at the gig last night

bbill335

Kebabkid said:

Dave Gilmour was at the gig last night

what did he think of the sound

RocknRollDave

bbill335 said:

Kebabkid said:

Dave Gilmour was at the gig last night

what did he think of the sound

Must’ve thought it was ok: he decided to stay till the end.

mike257

StefB said:

Danny1969 said:

Some venues are very challenging but don't always blame the venue. The PA / FOH is 90% the bands call for these kind of gigs. There's not a lot of money in touring and the least amount of gear you can truck to a venue the more you will save because every extra truck means more fuel. Every extra person means more catering and board. There's no money from album sales propping this up, you have to save every penny. 

Subs are often flown these days and although that cures a problem in one respect it creates another as these lower frequencies have way more energy and if you are in the wrong place then you will get hammered by them. Mid to higher seats and corners particularly 

Surely venues of this size all have fixed installations nowadays? 

I can't see how it would be financially viable for most bands having to cart FOH gear around at all otherwise, especially when we hear of many of them using Helix/Kemper/Axe FX etc for that very reason and for general consistency.

Absolutely not the case. As a general rule of thumb, for anything bigger than the Academy circuit, the band will be touring their own PA on a truck(s) with system techs adapting the configuration for each room and flying it up in the air each day. Even Brixton Academy only acquired a permanent install during its recent period of shutdown, before that you had to bring in a full sound and lighting rig on the day of your show. 

Arena-sized venues are used for so many different things that there's no comfortable one-size-fits-all installed system you could run with. The requirements for a concert, exhibition, conference, sporting event etc are all so different, from sound coverage to the impact on sightlines. It just wouldn't work. 

Moltisanti

Apparently the new CO-OP arena in Manchester sounds really good, my bandmate saw Sleep Token there and said it was crystal clear. It's a good job because the MEN/AO Arena (whatever it's called now) sounds absolute dogshit.

StefB

Moltisanti said:

Apparently the new CO-OP arena in Manchester sounds really good, my bandmate saw Sleep Token there and said it was crystal clear. It's a good job because the MEN/AO Arena (whatever it's called now) sounds absolute dogshit.

Nynex.

mike257

Moltisanti said:

Apparently the new CO-OP arena in Manchester sounds really good, my bandmate saw Sleep Token there and said it was crystal clear. It's a good job because the MEN/AO Arena (whatever it's called now) sounds absolute dogshit.

The Sleep Token crew are top notch, that's one of the best productions on the road right now. Looks and sounds incredible. 

Unlike a lot of arenas in the UK, which are multi-purpose/sports venues, the Co-Op was designed as a music venue so there's a little more thought been given to how the room sounds. The 'other' Manchester Arena wasn't - but I've heard that room sound great. It very much depends on the system that's gone in for the show, the system tech who's looking after it, and where you're sat/stood. 

bob21

@mike257 is on the money here - any arena scale show is touring the entire audio package, PA and all.

Whilst budgets are tighter than ever in touring, and truck space is always a premium (again, mostly down to cost again) - 99% of tours are carrying enough PA to cover 99% of 99% of venues on the tour. These challenges are well understood, and the accuracy of the prediction software available to us is very good. 

However - as with any show now, there are more considerations than just audio. Its frequently the case that either rigging considerations (I physically can’t get my hanging points where I want them) or sightline issues (generally PA in the audiences view of screens) both caused by other departments, usually Video, occasionally lighting or set, mean that compromises in audio have to be made for the good of the whole show ‘experience’. 

Another consideration at this level is that the bands will be carrying a FOH engineer, who will have a particular opinion of how the band should sound. This may be in line with the bands chosen aesthetic - or may be more in line with management’s!!! Of course sound mixes, tonal balance etc are all subjective - and you may dislike the subjective decisions made by the FOH engineer!! The system tech, if they are doing their job well, will be aiming to ensure the PA sounds the ‘same’ everywhere in the venue as FOH - so the mix should translate well throughout the space.

There is also the other major consideration - the vast majority of venues in the world were just not designed for large scale audio reproduction (no matter what several of them might have you believe in the marketing..!). Even in those designed for events, generally minimal or no proper acoustic design by well qualified live music venue acousticians takes place. This of course can often mean reflections, and other unfriendly room geometries and constructions - both of which will cause summation and cancellation across a venue or area - which all lead to inconsistencies between sections, or sometimes even seat to seat. This is just a reality of sound waves in a space - relatively simple physics.

The best PAs in the world (and I’ve worked with pretty much all of them) are excellent - but none of them can beat physics!

For context - I work for a very large event technology company, and spend quite a lot of my life designing and deploying PA systems into arenas, stadiums, concert halls, and a multitude of other venues! 

mike257

@bob21 - we must have crossed paths in a muddy field at some point, or at least be a couple of mutual connections away from one another. Are you at Brit Row or Solotech?

bob21

@mike257 I suspect so..! It is nothing if not a small world.. 

Haha, neither - I’m currently Head of Education at d&b solutions, formerly at SFL, and do a fair amount directly with audiotechnik too. I get involved in both production work and a lot of install design & commissioning. I also mix a few bands during festival season just for fun!

mike257

bob21 said:

@mike257 I suspect so..! It is nothing if not a small world.. 

Haha, neither - I’m currently Head of Education at d&b solutions, formerly at SFL, and do a fair amount directly with audiotechnik too. I get involved in both production work and a lot of install design & commissioning. I also mix a few bands during festival season just for fun!

Ah, assumed you were with a rental house from your last post. That's a cracking place to be, and (I'm sure you'll be glad to hear) my preferred brand of speaker. I spend a lot of time at stage left and I'm yet to be convinced anyone's ever made a better wedge than the M4! 

I'm out and about at all the usual festival spots this summer so hopefully cross paths at some point!