Neumann KM184 vs Gefell M300

slawler

I am looking to upgrade my recording microphone from a single Shure SM57 for acoustic guitar recording.

I have narrowed it down to a matched pair of either some Neumann KM184 or Gefell M300 microphones.

From my research, it seems that the KM184 can be slightly more harsh at the top end and the M300 is more like a vintage K84, although the price is over double.

Does anyone have any experience with a stereo set of these microphones, or ideally had the opportunity to test them both?

theatreanchor

I went down this road, and it took a long time to get out of it! The KM184 are very sensitive so if you have a well treated room, you’ll be fine. But if - like me - you don’t, they won’t be ideal. I ended up with a matched pair of NT5s and they’ve been super for acoustic recording. Very affordable too. You can easily afford to try them out without breaking the bank! 

Winny_Pooh

I have a few thoughts.

The M300 demos are stunning so those over a km184 for sure.

You were using a single 57? How did you arrive at buying a matched stereo pair of SDCs? I think of these mics as being for classical guitar, harp or a grand piano. They are "bright" as their usual use is capturing detail or "detail at a distance" from an acoustic instrument as high frequencies are diminished by distance from source.

Stereo acoustic recording is really only useful in sparse mixes, not usually with a drumkit or electric bass. Are you planning a solo acoustic album? Is your recording room acoustically treated?
A small diaphragm condensers mic up close (say 4-5inches in XY or ORTF) to a steel string acoustic with pick scrapes and string slides is Very detailed, too much so. Then if you pull then further away (lets say a spaced pair) until the top end detail and stereo image smooths out you need a Great sounding room as the room sound will really come in.

Major dilemma for a home recordist!

Think about whether you actually want Detail. If you like rock music, you will have heard much of the opposite, warm mono acoustic guitars. 

I really prefer the tone of a single valve LDC as thats how most of my favourite acoustic guitar sounds (Gillian Welch, Ryan Adams, Ray Lamontagne) were recorded. I settled on a Pearlman u47 style mic.

Before you blow your budget perhaps buy a set of Aston starlights or such so that you know what you are getting into with SDCs.

slawler

Thank you all for the advice so far.

I decided on a stero pair of SDCs as they will be purely for acoustic guitar recording - predominantly fingerstyle - so pieces like Andy Mckee, Tommy Emmanuel, Chet Atkins etc.

I have used an SM57 previously just because it was relatively cheap and better than a phone microphone but after researching extensively on YouTube videos, it seems that a stero pair of good quality SDCs is what I want to elevate my recorded sound.

I have a room with relatively good acoustics but will improve this with dampeners.

I was just intrigued to see if anyone had direct experience with these two options - I am leaning more towards the M300 based on research so far.

Appreciate all the advice.

robinbowes

Try a pair of these first: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-Single-Diaphragm-Condenser-Microphone/dp/B0002KZAM6

I'm not saying they're better than either of your proposed options, but for £90 you can see how a stereo pair of SDCs works for you. If you fundamentally don't like the results, it's unlikely that spending 10x or 20x more will help.

octatonic

I would not buy the KM184.
They are not that close to the KM84's, which are amazing and the gold standard, but quite expensive now.

The M300's are much closer to the KM84, but they are not as common.
They are still brighter than a KM84 and are a bit leaner in the midrange.
I've been trying to find a pair myself but they just don't come up used very often.

If you are looking for a bright pair of SDC's then the Josephson C42's are a better option for me in most situations to the KM184. They are fast and present without being strident, which I find the KM184's are.
I use the C42's on darker acoustic guitars all the time, and as drum overheads.

Also look at the Beyer Dynamic MC930- they don't get a lot of press but are great.

I also really like the Peluso CEMC6, they are really excellent. They are warmer than the KM84, sort of ribbon-esque. They are half the price of the Gefells. I use these with bright acoustic guitars.

For recording acoustic guitars though I almost never use two SDC's.
I usually use the technique Vance Powell talks about which is to use an SDC and an LDC (usually a Peluso P67) or a ribbon (AEA R84a).

The microphones should be at 90 degrees to one another and I usually hard pan them.
I tend to use an API or Neve 1073 preamp.

Final option to check out: the Line Audio CM4.
You can get them here:

https://pinknoise-systems.co.uk/products/la-cm4

They are a genuine bargain at around £159 a piece.

I wish Neumann would reissue the KM84.
I don't really understand why they don't.

octatonic

robinbowes said:

Try a pair of these first: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-Single-Diaphragm-Condenser-Microphone/dp/B0002KZAM6

I'm not saying they're better than either of your proposed options, but for £90 you can see how a stereo pair of SDCs works for you. If you fundamentally don't like the results, it's unlikely that spending 10x or 20x more will help.

Sorry but not what I'd recommend.
The Behringer B-5 is harsh, fizzy and has a lot of self noise.
They aren't remotely in the same league as the other mics being mentioned.

The Line Audio CM4 is a bit more expensive, about £100 per mic but it is an order of magnitude better.

Rode NT5 is worth a shout too, especially used.

Stuckfast

octatonic said:

I wish Neumann would reissue the KM84.
I don't really understand why they don't.

Apparently they did release a limited run of KM84s last year made from NOS parts. They did zero publicity around it and I think sold them only to gold customers or something. Certainly I never heard about it until much later. I think they did 100 pairs at $5k a pop and sold them all straight away.

Best snare drum mic ever, as long as your trust your drummer not to hit it.

If you want a more affordable yet fairly flat-sounding pencil mic that's not harsh, try Hebden Sound. Made in the UK and direct descendants of the old Calrec mics. The Austrian Audio CC8 is also a very good mic. It's like an 'improved' version of the old AKG C415/CK1.

octatonic

Stuckfast said:

octatonic said:

I wish Neumann would reissue the KM84.
I don't really understand why they don't.

Apparently they did release a limited run of KM84s last year made from NOS parts. They did zero publicity around it and I think sold them only to gold customers or something. Certainly I never heard about it until much later. I think they did 100 pairs at $5k a pop and sold them all straight away.

Best snare drum mic ever, as long as your trust your drummer not to hit it.

If you want a more affordable yet fairly flat-sounding pencil mic that's not harsh, try Hebden Sound. Made in the UK and direct descendants of the old Calrec mics. The Austrian Audio CC8 is also a very good mic. It's like an 'improved' version of the old AKG C415/CK1.

Oh wow.
Neumann, eh?

Yes, the CC8 sounds cool.
I use the C451 as a hihat mic.
Would be nice to have a smoother option for that.

I will check out Hebden.

Have you tried the Line Audio CM4? 
I am surprised more people don't talk about them but I guess that is what happens with small companies like that.

As an aside- I just got a Peluso P-67 recently, it is lush.
I can't afford a real U67 so it is close enough.

Stuckfast

I have heard lots of good things about the Line Audio mics and especially the omnis, but never used them myself. 

I've never put up a hi-hat mic in my life! Is it one of those things that you only end up using sometimes?

icu81b4

Anyone tried the modelling mics like UAD Sphere for this type of application?

https://www.uaudio.com/products/ua-sphere-dlx-modeling-microphone

octatonic

Stuckfast said:

I have heard lots of good things about the Line Audio mics and especially the omnis, but never used them myself. 

I've never put up a hi-hat mic in my life! Is it one of those things that you only end up using sometimes?

It depends on the song.
In harder rock music I tend to use them.
In softer rock and pop styles I tend to just use the OH's,

octatonic

icu81b4 said:

Anyone tried the modelling mics like UAD Sphere for this type of application?

https://www.uaudio.com/products/ua-sphere-dlx-modeling-microphone

Nope, I don't own any modelling microphones.

I'd rather put my money into the physical things I know and like, rather than software based things that sometimes end up as abandonware.
UA are pretty good in that regard but my microphones never need a software update to work.

icu81b4

octatonic said:

icu81b4 said:

Anyone tried the modelling mics like UAD Sphere for this type of application?

https://www.uaudio.com/products/ua-sphere-dlx-modeling-microphone

Nope, I don't own any modelling microphones.

I'd rather put my money into the physical things I know and like, rather than software based things that sometimes end up as abandonware.
UA are pretty good in that regard but my microphones never need a software update to work.

Good point. 

I have a Mojave 301fet which I’m pleased with, SoS gave a good review, but somehow they don’t seem to have caught on much as I rarely hear of folk using them. But I’d recommend them too.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/mojave-ma301-fet

octatonic

Mojave are very well regarded for the money.
I've not used the 301fet but I imagine it is really nice.

Stuckfast

The Mojave mics are designed by Dave Royer. He knows what he's doing.

Actually when I said that the KM84 was the best snare mic ever, I forgot about the Mojave MA-37. If money was no object that would be my ultimate snare mic but I can't imagine spending £3k on something to get whacked by drummers.

robinbowes

octatonic said:

robinbowes said:

Try a pair of these first: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-Single-Diaphragm-Condenser-Microphone/dp/B0002KZAM6

I'm not saying they're better than either of your proposed options, but for £90 you can see how a stereo pair of SDCs works for you. If you fundamentally don't like the results, it's unlikely that spending 10x or 20x more will help.

Sorry but not what I'd recommend.
The Behringer B-5 is harsh, fizzy and has a lot of self noise.
They aren't remotely in the same league as the other mics being mentioned.

I'm not suggesting they are, but they're good enough to tell if a pair of SDCs will work in a given application, without spending four figures. Of course, borrowing a pair of better SDCs to try would be a better option.

Cirrus

Since the discussion's gone so far from the OP, might as well add that I was surprised at the weekend how much I liked my modded Rode NT3 on acoustic.

There's a boost which is around +4dB & 6kHz built into the circuit which the designer says the marketing team asked him to add, if you remove a resistor you defeat it and get a pretty decent SDC. Stock, it is a bit harsh.

slawler

I can get a stereo set of Gefell M300 microphones for £2,160.

Just trying to justify whether they are worth the cost...

Winny_Pooh

No more than a set of £800 mics

octatonic

slawler said:

I can get a stereo set of Gefell M300 microphones for £2,160.

Just trying to justify whether they are worth the cost...

The stereo set is more expensive than buying a pair of microphones but it comes with the stereo bar, which I think is massively overpriced really.

Whether it is worth it is up to you.
Most places will discount to that level though, it is about 10% off retail.

I've seen the stereo set as low as £1500 used and the individual mics for about £550.
I would go with them around that level.