Andertons video became an FRFR critique

Roland

flying_pie said:

@Roland @Musicwolf out of interest what do you use for your acoustic emulation?

Every acoustic guitar you hear, both live and in recordings, is heavily EQ’d to avoid feedback, suppress resonant frequencies, and get the guitar to sit well in the mix. I use the neck pickup as the sound source. It’s an Oil City Californian, which is a Strat/Tele hybrid, so has more treble than a traditional Tele neck pickup. 

Then there’s are two IRs in the Cab block. The louder one is a Martin D28, with a D42 adding some body. I had great difficulty finding good clean acoustic guitar sounds to match my guitar too. I tried with the two acoustics I own, but a combination of stage mics rather than studio mics, and untreated rooms, meant that I couldn’t get the top end right. Eventually I found two recordings which weren’t too processed, and matched my guitar to them. 

The third component is a PEQ, which does several things:

The most difficult area to get right is the bass roll off, because you’re wanting warmth and body without boom. It took some experimentation to find the right roll off point and slope. I ended up with a steep cutoff from 200Hz, plus a wide but shallow depression at 160Hz. There’s a deep depression around 922Hz which takes out the lower mid range, and makes it sound like an acoustic guitar. There are two notches, at 3,290 and 5,025kHz, to take some nasty resonances.

Lastly, in terms of sonic impact, There’s a multi-band compressor at the front of the chain to suppress the sustain of low and low mid frequencies whilst letting the top strings ring.

flying_pie

Thanks @Roland and @Musicwolf ;

FWIW I've been experimenting with my old Boss GT100 and a neck humbucker. I have ended up with similar EQ to what you're doing, albeit more basic. As you say it's near impossible to get the bass thick and warm but not boomy (much like a real acoustic). I've put EQ  in front of the acoustic sim and am trying a few different IRs in a Mooer Radar in the S/R loop. And compression, delay and reverb of course  I've also blended in a clean amp to warm it all up

Still sounds a ton better than my wife's cheap Ovation acoustic 

willo

TimmyO said:

Dude, you’ve imagined that.

Sorry, and you're right to call that out. It isn't what is happening here.

Thank you for sharing the video and I look forward to watching it.

DiscoStu

I use FRFR because of its weight ,or lack of. I simply can't carry a heavy amp any more.
It doesn't sound as good as my old valve amp, but it does sound good enough to use in my band

TimmyO

willo said:

TimmyO said:

Dude, you’ve imagined that.

Sorry, and you're right to call that out. It isn't what is happening here.

Thank you for sharing the video and I look forward to watching it.

I actually think they let themselves down a bit by not trying to tweak it at all

willo

TimmyO said:

willo said:

TimmyO said:

Dude, you’ve imagined that.

Sorry, and you're right to call that out. It isn't what is happening here.

Thank you for sharing the video and I look forward to watching it.

I actually think they let themselves down a bit by not trying to tweak it at all

I've just watched it (sitting here with audio through a Fractal ). My thoughts:

1. I don't disagree, at all. A few people on here, myself included, have been saying for some time that the IR or cab is one of the most important parts of it all.
2. For me, I own an FR but I do question why because if I'm going FOH then I have IEM and its a bit pointless and becomes another thing on a crowded stage. If my old JCM800 had an effects loop I would probably use that as a poweramp and save the FRFR money.
3. Your point about tweaking it, particularly EQ cuts, is definitely a big missed opportunity
4. They picked a bloody good amp to test against. One of my greatest memories was recording in a studio with a Rockerverb and an AC30 going full tilt - glorious tones.

I also thought Lee & Pete did better than they usually do with digital gear, discussing how and where it does work well. I also though that the stat that 80% of people buying modellers are home players presumably means they overindex for playing live (i.e. I think more than 80% of all guitarists would be playing at home only).

I think its all use cases and what works best for each individual as a player.

Thank you again for sharing the link!

Roland

flying_pie said: …. As you say it's near impossible to get the bass thick and warm but not boomy (much like a real acoustic).

I’ve just come back from band rehearsal in a village hall. It was a bright room, with plain walls, varnished wood floor, and flat ceiling. There was too much top end in the acoustic guitar sound, and not enough warmth. I didn’t bother to redo the EQ because the places we normally play in aren’t that bright.

exocet

I was surprised by how the Fender FR212 was so scooped in the midrange. I've not used it or it's 1x12 version to be able to say whether that was a typical charateristic. Perhaps a little unfair to compare it against a real 4 x12 cab in the room.
Not sure what they were hoping to prove but sort of refreshing to hear a retail / online shop undermine the concept of stuff that they sell a lot of. 
Mostly I play an FM9 with a barefaced cab which is pretty lightweight. I also have a Fender HRD but haven't (yet) used them together in a gig situation. I do think that the flexibility of FRFR is overstated and that there's a lot to be said for sticking to a single speaker type within a modelling preset. Once you accept that, it becomes harder to justify using FRFR over your favourite cab..unless your favourite is a 4x12. You can still mess around with different amounts models within the modeller to achieve different dynamic / tonal response. 

bloodandtears

exocet said:

I do think that the flexibility of FRFR is overstated and that there's a lot to be said for sticking to a single speaker type within a modelling preset. Once you accept that, it becomes harder to justify using FRFR over your favourite cab..unless your favourite is a 4x12. You can still mess around with different amounts models within the modeller to achieve different dynamic / tonal response. 

@willo ; ^^^^

For me, I have never been one for heavy valve amps and pedals..  it's simply overkill for the dog and duck scale gigs I do..   A modeller provides a simple consistent sound and experience with the ultimate flexibility, I use wah, pitch shift, harmonisers, acoustic simulation.. all simple to access, but primarily the same amp/cab models.

Now, whether it be direct to FOH with IEMs/wedges or a backline is a personal preference or situation specific for sure..  but I prefer not to carry around a heavy SS/Valve combo to simply provide a bit of air movement and on stage ambience. I could easily do without a speaker behind me but I do like that secondary sound source sense check so it being lightweight whilst loud enough is enough to justify its presence over a heavy, expensive combo.

Helix -> Fender FR10

         -> FOH -> IEM (just left ear which also adds protection to block cymbals)

bloodandtears

Having watched the video, the sound difference is entirely noticeable..  but micing an FRFR?? and how much time did they invest in the Tonemaster cabs to match? it's not really a true comparison.. 

exocet

bloodandtears said:

Having watched the video, the sound difference is entirely noticeable..  but micing an FRFR?? and how much time did they invest in the Tonemaster cabs to match? it's not really a true comparison.. 

There were sections of the video where what you were hearing was the room mic and not the cab mic. I agree that micing an FRFR is not easy / asking for problems! The FRFR was also "flat on the floor" which tends to exaggerate the bass response - possibly that's why it sounded so scooped (exaggerated Top end via mic pointing towards centre of FRFR cone which also has a concentric tweeter). That said, it still sounded scooped in the room mic clip.
Better IR choice / post EQ to your taste would be a fairer reflection of FRFR.

chrisj1602

bloodandtears said:

Having watched the video, the sound difference is entirely noticeable..  but micing an FRFR?? and how much time did they invest in the Tonemaster cabs to match? it's not really a true comparison.. 

Yeah, micing a model of a mic’d cabinet doesn’t make sense does it? It’s a difficult one to get a level playing field but I don’t ever feel these comparisons are done fairly.

TimmyO

At least the Andertons ones always have a big vibe of ‘look just take this for what it is - this is at least 50% for fun’ 

octatonic

EricTheWeary said:

I had that on. I’m sure there are people on here who have arrived at a similar conclusion - that guitar cabs sound more like guitar cabs than FRFR cabs do. Assuming that you have a cab primarily for live use then the subtleties between different IRs is going to be lost, leave all that for home/ recording use. 

I think Guthrie Govan and other pros use FRFR so maybe it  is just spending longer with the gear and getting better at dialling it in. Although if plugging into the back of a cab bypasses the need to spend a day tweaking EQs you have to wonder why they bother. 

I'm sort of on the fence with this video.
I agree that *some FRFR* straight out of the box has all the issues that the video raises.

The danger here is extrapolating out beyond what the video actually tests.
Saying that all FRFR has an inherent & insurmountable problem would be incorrect because it is highly context dependant.

I don't like FRFR for live because it is a pain to dial in, in the situations I need to use it.
I currently use a Suhr PT15IR though as my live amp, because it works with and without a cabinet.
(Previously I've been using various Matchless amps, which are amazing but big, heavy, loud and less flexible.)

If I play a show that requires silent stage I can still take my existing rig and just not plug it into a speaker cab, as it has a power soak and cab emulation, which is great.
I've also used it for some of the tracks on the single we just released- no one knows it is an IR, I am sure.

In terms of using FRFR live, every room we get to has a different sound and I find that to get the FRFR to sound as good in the room as it can I need to spend more time than I have getting it to sound good.

What doesn't take any time at all is to plug into my pedalboard, which is connected to an amp and then turned up loud enough to be heard. That always works.

If I could I'd have a live rig that was a pair of amps, a Matchless and a Suhr or a Friedman.
But I'd need road crew to lug it about and my own tech to maintain it.
That isn't going to happen.

I won't go down the FRFR route again unless 100% of my shows are silent stage and we use in ears.
I will resist this as much as possible though.

bloodandtears

octatonic said:

In terms of using FRFR live, every room we get to has a different sound and I find that to get the FRFR to sound as good in the room as it can I need to spend more time than I have getting it to sound good.

Why would you try to get it sound like an amp in the room if it's going direct to FOH anyway? 
In my scenario, I am not trying to get it sound like an amp in the room,  it's purpose is to replicate FOH sound for a point of reference and move air for the guitar feedback type stuff.. 

octatonic said:

I won't go down the FRFR route again unless 100% of my shows are silent stage and we use in ears.

If its a silent stage and IEMs gig, why bother with FRFR if you can't use it? is it to create sounds at home? if so, use you IEM phones?

digitalscream

bloodandtears said:

Having watched the video, the sound difference is entirely noticeable..  but micing an FRFR?? and how much time did they invest in the Tonemaster cabs to match? it's not really a true comparison.. 

Honestly, it totally smacked of "We need to put out a video this week, let's chuck a few amps together and see what happens" rather than "Let's do a fair comparison and try to get the best, most-similar sound out of all three amps", done by folk who can't be bothered trying to see what's possible in the time they've got. Or maybe the goal was for Pete to be able to say "Hey, see, that's all shit compared to a valve amp".

Having done amps, combos, direct to PA, modeller -> FRFR and modeller -> power amp (valve and solid state) -> guitar cab, I can honestly say that the absolute best set of sounds I ever had was with the HX Stomp -> solid state power amp -> guitar cab. Utterly indistinguishable from a real amp (no specific real amp, just for my sound), and far more usable to boot.

By comparison, FRFR was the worst sound from my perspective. Direct to PA was meh for me but easiest for the sound guy to deal with. Amps were marginally better for either rhythm or lead, but not both (shared EQ on all the amps I gigged with), but the most annoying to deal with.

Critically, though, in all cases I was going for the same specific sounds - and all of those rigs sounded a hell of a lot closer to each other, to the point where nobody in the rest of the band or the audience could functionally tell the difference, than the ones in that video.

bloodandtears

digitalscream said:

bloodandtears said:

Having watched the video, the sound difference is entirely noticeable..  but micing an FRFR?? and how much time did they invest in the Tonemaster cabs to match? it's not really a true comparison.. 

Having done amps, combos, direct to PA, modeller -> FRFR and modeller -> power amp (valve and solid state) -> guitar cab, I can honestly say that the absolute best set of sounds I ever had was with the HX Stomp -> solid state power amp -> guitar cab. Utterly indistinguishable from a real amp (no specific real amp, just for my sound), and far more usable to boot.

This is kinda where I started with it...   POD HD500x --> Mooer Baby Bomb --> Marshall 2x12...  but I pretty the weight and convenience of the FRFR one box.... maybe I'd consider an SS amp into a 1x12 option one (iirc @Danny1969 built something like this??) 

..but I have to consider the acoustic sims I use and the fact that I don't really listen to the cab on stage primarily so I come back round to FRFR once more..  it's a serve all purpose loudspeaker solution that does the job for me.

TimmyO

digitalscream said:

bloodandtears said:

Having watched the video, the sound difference is entirely noticeable..  but micing an FRFR?? and how much time did they invest in the Tonemaster cabs to match? it's not really a true comparison.. 

Honestly, it totally smacked of "We need to put out a video this week, let's chuck a few amps together and see what happens" rather than "Let's do a fair comparison and try to get the best, most-similar sound out of all three amps", done by folk who can't be bothered trying to see what's possible in the time they've got. 

That’s exactly and deliberately what almost all their blindfold tests are - nobody thinks they are aiming for ‘exhaustive investigation’

They are entertaining and sometimes informative 

octatonic

bloodandtears said:

octatonic said:

In terms of using FRFR live, every room we get to has a different sound and I find that to get the FRFR to sound as good in the room as it can I need to spend more time than I have getting it to sound good.

Why would you try to get it sound like an amp in the room if it's going direct to FOH anyway? 
In my scenario, I am not trying to get it sound like an amp in the room,  it's purpose is to replicate FOH sound for a point of reference and move air for the guitar feedback type stuff.. 

I'm talking about two different scenarios.
In the instance where I am using FRFR speakers then it isn't going to FOH, or at least not exclusively.

I want the guitar to sound like an amp in the room as much as it can.

'move air for the guitar feedback type stuff.. '

I don't see how that it that different from an 'amp in the room'.
To be more specific I'm looking for a guitar that sounds that is as close to an authentic guitar tone, as one would get from turning a valve amp up loud.

bloodandtears said:

octatonic said:

In terms of using FRFR live, every room we get to has a different sound and I find that to get the FRFR to sound as good in the room as it can I need to spend more time than I have getting it to sound good.

Why would you try to get it sound like an amp in the room if it's going direct to FOH anyway? 
In my scenario, I am not trying to get it sound like an amp in the room,  it's purpose is to replicate FOH sound for a point of reference and move air for the guitar feedback type stuff.. 

octatonic said:

I won't go down the FRFR route again unless 100% of my shows are silent stage and we use in ears.

If its a silent stage and IEMs gig, why bother with FRFR if you can't use it? is it to create sounds at home? if so, use you IEM phones?

Fair point- I misspoke slightly.
What I meant here was I won't go back to using modelling amps live unless we have to use in ears, with a silent stage, which I would prefer to not have to do.

Creating sounds is a good point though- I do this at my studio, not at home but it often yields quite different results from what I actually need at a gig, because my studio is acoustically treated, and close to ideal, but a gig never is. 

One of the main issues I have with using modellers live is making a global change to patches takes more time than, say, turning down the treble on an amp because the room is really bright.

Modellers are great for certain types of player- I'm thinking someone like Devin Townsend, who has his own monitor and mix engineers- they can sort the mixing for the performer. I play at venues where the band might not have met the mix engineer before, might not know the set or even the aesthetic of the band, so we have to present that ourselves. It is easier with a tube amp because making global changes is relatively easy.

Not quite as easy is editing a bunch of patches on the fly.

I am not against modelling amps- I have an Axe FX III, FM9, Kemper and a Tonex here and they get used a lot.
I just don't like them live for practical reasons and part of that is how FRFR sounds, but it isn't the whole story.
I like modelling amps the most when they are going into the FX return of a tube amp but at the point I might as well just use the tube amp, which is what I do.

I've given FRFR a good go too- I was one of the early adopters of the Matrix power amps, they sent me the very first GT800FX which I still have here somewhere.

gearaddict

I thought it was really telling that Lee actually used the phrase 'emperor's new clothes' regarding FRFR. I think the manufacturers have been heavily implying, if not actually saying, that these FRFR boxes give you an amp in the room sound and they just don't. I mean, obviously, I guess...but I believed the marketing and some reviews and bought both the Fender and Laney FRFRs before going back to a power amp and real cab.