Andertons video became an FRFR critique

TimmyO

Lewy said:

Nerine said:

What I found when using a FRFR solution with modeller or modeller with guitar amp or PA speaker/monitor or modeller with power amp and guitar cab, I was forever buying things to “help” with the experience. The net result, in reality, ended up being no more versatile or portable in real world terms than a valve head into a good 1x12 cab. 

I’d really like to know the rationale for buying an FRFR cab (that looks like a guitar cab) to put behind you on stage. At that point, just use an amp, IMO. 

Honestly I think half of why I like it is I can fit using my modeller into playing scenarios that are only really geared up to me turning up with an amp and having it behind me on stage, the most regular one being a small band gig where the only thing going through the pa is vocals and there's nobody doing FOH sound. The last gig I did with a great PA and sound guy I was more than happy with just hearing my guitar through foldback. 

"Why not just use an amp?"....because I don't want to. I like the fact that I can get any conceivable sound I could want out of my modeller. I don't use more than a couple at a time in any given setting but I am totally off the GAS tone chasing hamster wheel because with my current setup there's nothing I could ever want to do that I can't do. I also much prefer produced guitar sounds - with things like delay and reverb and even compression at the very end of the chain, not before the power amp and speaker. Can't do that with an amp. I also don't particularly like the sound of 1x12 combos which are the only amps I could practically use at home, and I especially don't like them in the fairly small space of my music room.

Another reason is consistency across playing scenarios. 80% of my playing is at home, either practicing or recording. I don't want to have to completely switch approach for a gig. With the total investment of about 2 hours, which led me to dialling in a great EQ block to compensate for overall loudness/Fletcher Munson etc, I can use any of my home presets live. 

Plenty of rationales...those are just a couple of mine. Danish Pete doesn't "get it"....that's fine. Based on his line of bants, the more divergence between him and me the better as far as I'm concerned

Very well put - in the Andertons vid they only considered a single narrow use case (the one they each care most about) 

As to the Danish Pete bants - it often strays in to the ‘err, that’s not ok…’ I agree 

Voxman

TimmyO said:

Lewy said:

Nerine said:

What I found when using a FRFR solution with modeller or modeller with guitar amp or PA speaker/monitor or modeller with power amp and guitar cab, I was forever buying things to “help” with the experience. The net result, in reality, ended up being no more versatile or portable in real world terms than a valve head into a good 1x12 cab. 

I’d really like to know the rationale for buying an FRFR cab (that looks like a guitar cab) to put behind you on stage. At that point, just use an amp, IMO. 

Honestly I think half of why I like it is I can fit using my modeller into playing scenarios that are only really geared up to me turning up with an amp and having it behind me on stage, the most regular one being a small band gig where the only thing going through the pa is vocals and there's nobody doing FOH sound. The last gig I did with a great PA and sound guy I was more than happy with just hearing my guitar through foldback. 

"Why not just use an amp?"....because I don't want to. I like the fact that I can get any conceivable sound I could want out of my modeller. I don't use more than a couple at a time in any given setting but I am totally off the GAS tone chasing hamster wheel because with my current setup there's nothing I could ever want to do that I can't do. I also much prefer produced guitar sounds - with things like delay and reverb and even compression at the very end of the chain, not before the power amp and speaker. Can't do that with an amp. I also don't particularly like the sound of 1x12 combos which are the only amps I could practically use at home, and I especially don't like them in the fairly small space of my music room.

Another reason is consistency across playing scenarios. 80% of my playing is at home, either practicing or recording. I don't want to have to completely switch approach for a gig. With the total investment of about 2 hours, which led me to dialling in a great EQ block to compensate for overall loudness/Fletcher Munson etc, I can use any of my home presets live. 

Plenty of rationales...those are just a couple of mine. Danish Pete doesn't "get it"....that's fine. Based on his line of bants, the more divergence between him and me the better as far as I'm concerned

Very well put - in the Andertons vid they only considered a single narrow use case (the one they each care most about) 

As to the Danish Pete bants - it often strays in to the ‘err, that’s not ok…’ I agree 

Pretty much ditto. FRFR gives me consistency, it's loud, compact & easy to carry (Headrush FRFR108 + tripod), I can use my mfx modeller to the full re amp/cab/fx and neither the audience nor bandmates would know any difference. 

bloodandtears

Its all about use case and intended experience.... the main difference being the preferred choice of speaker..

FRFR will aim to faithfully reproduce the full signal chain that a modeller can emit including speaker emulation and mic tonalities and position and post cab fx; whereas a guitar cab with a power amp simply will not.

But using a modeller signal chain configured to solely use the FRFR's speaker emulation to imitate the "amp in the room" sound, well that's a different beast and one I'm pretty sure that the Anderton video tried (albeit naively) to implement for comparison; and I suspect, despite manufacturer's spiel, it's not quite there..

DiscoStu

I've never been truly happy with my Tonex > FRFR setup. I mean it is incredibly flexible and the sounds available are outstanding, but where it sounds great in the house it lacks punch when I'm playing with my band, that 'thwack' you get from a 'real' amp.

It's all about weight for me, I need lightweight gear now so my FR10 makes total sense at 11.6kg.

I have wondered about other options, like disabling the cabs in Tonex and go in to the FX loop of a combo but then that's more weight again. 

Or power amp then neo speaker cab?

Or into something like Line 6 Catalyst?

It's more gear though...

Danny1969

I think it all depends on what we are trying to achieve as well. I did go through a stage where I wanted the FOH sound to be very produced and get a close to the record as possible. I've certainly done a lot of gigs in theatres where that was the aim in terms of very quiet stages and everything processed FOH.  The work I'm doing now is more "in your face live band"  ... it sounds what it is : a very loud live band with cranked amps and loud drums. There's no attempt to be polite and the sound is consistent ...because it's consistently very loud  

TimmyO

Danny1969 said:

 the sound is consistent ...because it's consistently very loud  

Spinal Tap worthy line  

Voxman

DiscoStu said:

I've never been truly happy with my Tonex > FRFR setup. I mean it is incredibly flexible and the sounds available are outstanding, but where it sounds great in the house it lacks punch when I'm playing with my band, that 'thwack' you get from a 'real' amp.

It's all about weight for me, I need lightweight gear now so my FR10 makes total sense at 11.6kg.

I have wondered about other options, like disabling the cabs in Tonex and go in to the FX loop of a combo but then that's more weight again. 

Or power amp then neo speaker cab?

Or into something like Line 6 Catalyst?

It's more gear though...

Ditto re weight for me. re 'thwack' I think what you're referring to is what I call bottom end 'grunt'

As regular folk here will know (& whilst I have a Pod Go and Valeton GP200 for home fun), when it comes to full on gigging I'm still using old tech Vox Valvetronix Tonelabs (SE & LE). Aside from being dead easy to use on stage (real knobs & dials) there's just something about the way Vox designed the circuitry that effectively (& similar to the 'Blue Valvetronix amps these were derived from) uses the 12AX7 valve in the power amp, not preamp, section and it just seems to sound more natural & more like an amp. 

Now, I've played through a LOT of other modellers including a Helix LT, Boss GT3-6, GT100, GT1000, GT100X, Ampero, Mooer GE300, Headrush (loved the touch screen on these btw, better than the Boss GX100!) and as sophisticated and great sounding as all these are re modelling, IR's, fx, signal chains etc, there's just a certain something about these original Tonelabs that for me has a fuller more valve-like tone and feel with more of that fuller 'thwack'. Many others have said the same, so I know it's not just me. 

I also add a BBE Boosta Grand after the Tonelab to use as a variable clean boost for lead solos which in addition to a volume boost gives a slightly fatter, girthier sound so if I want to get more of that typical eg Marshall low end grunt for rhythm, then kicking this in really helps to add more of that and might be something worth trying.   

digitalscream

DiscoStu said:

I've never been truly happy with my Tonex > FRFR setup. I mean it is incredibly flexible and the sounds available are outstanding, but where it sounds great in the house it lacks punch when I'm playing with my band, that 'thwack' you get from a 'real' amp.

It's all about weight for me, I need lightweight gear now so my FR10 makes total sense at 11.6kg.

I have wondered about other options, like disabling the cabs in Tonex and go in to the FX loop of a combo but then that's more weight again. 

Or power amp then neo speaker cab?

Or into something like Line 6 Catalyst?

It's more gear though...

In my experience of bad-back-inspired gear choices, it's all about the distribution of weight. A small-ish power amp on the board (like a PowerStage or similar) going into a lightweight guitar cab is the way forward, so that the bag with the pedalboard/cables/etc is roughly the same weight as the cab. I reckon that balance is somewhere in the 8-10kg range, ideally.

I mean, the lightest option I've ever had was an HX Stomp -> PS170 -> Barefaced 1x12". Sounded absolutely great (almost as good as the Matrix 2x12", but much better spread of sound), and just a single trip from the car for everything. I'd love to be able to try the ToneX profiles I've got now with that rig in a band context, but there's sadly no chance of that these days.

stratman3142

Danny1969 said:

...The work I'm doing now is more "in your face live band"  ... it sounds what it is : a very loud live band with cranked amps and loud drums. There's no attempt to be polite and the sound is consistent ...because it's consistently very loud  

That's the spirit. The kind of band I'd like to see. Are you doing any gigs near me in Devon?

TimmyO

TimmyO said:

Danny1969 said:

 the sound is consistent ...because it's consistently very loud  

Spinal Tap worthy line  

Reminds
me of a drummer quote I heard : “how can I play with more dynamics ? I’m already hitting them as hard as I can!”

LionAquaLooper

For me it's not a case of A or B.  I bought a used Headrush 108 for £150, but I also have a Marshall combo I can plug straight into power amp section.  I bring one or the other depending on circumstances.  Cost-wise £150 to have an FRFR option isn't bad.  On the flipside, a decent 1x12 guitar cab might also just cost roughly the same if you already have an FRFR.  

flying_pie

LionAquaLooper said:

For me it's not a case of A or B.  I bought a used Headrush 108 for £150, but I also have a Marshall combo I can plug straight into power amp section.  I bring one or the other depending on circumstances.  Cost-wise £150 to have an FRFR option is okay.   

I think it's more practical to buy a PA speaker as your FRFR option than the cab style FRFR things. That way you can use them as a traditional PA, a floor monitor or backline whereas the fake cab FRFRs are more limited in their use.

The fake cabs do look better on a stage though

Voxman

digitalscream said:

DiscoStu said:

I've never been truly happy with my Tonex > FRFR setup. I mean it is incredibly flexible and the sounds available are outstanding, but where it sounds great in the house it lacks punch when I'm playing with my band, that 'thwack' you get from a 'real' amp.

It's all about weight for me, I need lightweight gear now so my FR10 makes total sense at 11.6kg.

I have wondered about other options, like disabling the cabs in Tonex and go in to the FX loop of a combo but then that's more weight again. 

Or power amp then neo speaker cab?

Or into something like Line 6 Catalyst?

It's more gear though...

In my experience of bad-back-inspired gear choices, it's all about the distribution of weight. A small-ish power amp on the board (like a PowerStage or similar) going into a lightweight guitar cab is the way forward, so that the bag with the pedalboard/cables/etc is roughly the same weight as the cab. I reckon that balance is somewhere in the 8-10kg range, ideally.

I mean, the lightest option I've ever had was an HX Stomp -> PS170 -> Barefaced 1x12". Sounded absolutely great (almost as good as the Matrix 2x12", but much better spread of sound), and just a single trip from the car for everything. I'd love to be able to try the ToneX profiles I've got now with that rig in a band context, but there's sadly no chance of that these days.

Those Barefaced cabs look really good but at circa £600 for the stock Vintage 30, these aren't cheap. They do offer lots of variations though re cab size, speaker size, and speaker type (basically any Celestion you want) & you can certainly save a lot of weight if you opt for the Neodymium (reducing weight from 10kg down to 7kg!). Interestingly I read that although these can be very bass heavy, they have a low cut filter switch that also increases power handling and reduces distortion.  Link here for those interested.

https://barefacedaudio.com/products/reformer-112?variant=23404540526650

But you can also have powered versions of any of their cabs, & I found this vid really interesting:



So like everything I suppose it depends on your budget, and how fussy you are about your tone.  Personally, for typical pub and smaller club gigs for now at least I'm happy with my Tonelabs through a Headrush FRFR108, but I do still have a few different amp options if I want/need them.   

welshboyo

So I'm in the complete other boat here - I have never been happier with my sound with my FR10/FM9 setup..

I have been through lots and lots of real amps over the years - Boogie's, Bogner's, Marshall's etc etc and I was always constantly battling with the change between venues (especially the Boogie's) and reliability (yes, Mr Bogner, looking at you here....)

Since initially trying the Headrushes which were just about OK in all fairness for the money (if you EQ'd the hell out of them) the introduction of the  FR10's were a total gamechanger - plenty loud enough, sound exactly like an amp to me (with the right IR and they need a hot signal too to come alive) - the big wins are its constant every night, if there is a need for a room tweak its easily done on the cab (or cabs in my case)itself, they project well (the 108's didn't), and they are light to carry, fit in the car with minimal fuss or heaving about like some of the "hardwood, heavy iron and EV" stuff I've had over the years. Also, to the regular punter, it looks like stuff that a band he/she may have seen on the Glastonbury coverage on Iplayer so must be right - yes, I've had regular punters point me out as miming when going IEM/direct as I haven't got one of them box things behind me (true story)

If 1 of these FR's goes pop (which no doubt they will), then its £400 ish to replace rather than potential expensive valves, biasing and servicing/repairs - some of the amps I've had would easily chew up valves in a year with heavy gigging for about the same cost - OK, I get the repair/recycle Greta wannabe's getting their knickers in a twist here but I don't remember valves being eco-friendly either...

OK, I admit its not valve maaaannn, but the modelling is so good now that it doesn't really matter anymore, totally get those who still swear by the 1960's tech/heat source (and I have been there!!), but I struggle these days to even see myself buying another valve amp in the future - unless its a nostalgic feel thing maybe (or if the MK7 Boogies come into the realms of affordable)or FRFR are outlawed for guitar players by the Govt.

We also play a lot of silent or mainly quiet stages so a cooking MKIIC+ ain't going to fit in there - with the FR's I have the luxury of a choice of either IEM, FOH, backline, or mix of all/both at my disposal and the FR's are mostly used as a sound reinforcement for me and for a bit of actual stage spill and fill which is nice in some venues especially with acoustic kit -we sometimes run the PA vocal only/vocals + a "spread mix" of guitars +backline/or silent/IEM.

It also gives me a huge amount of flexibility with sounds - I can go from crystal DI cleans, Acoustic Sims through to total filth - all from 1 sound source and there is no denying the FR10 can shift some serious air (bit like me typing this long winded post)

Biggest revelation for me in this journey (and its already been mentioned) is the IR feeding the FR's - really is a case of shit in=shit out

digitalscream

Voxman said:

digitalscream said:

DiscoStu said:

I've never been truly happy with my Tonex > FRFR setup. I mean it is incredibly flexible and the sounds available are outstanding, but where it sounds great in the house it lacks punch when I'm playing with my band, that 'thwack' you get from a 'real' amp.

It's all about weight for me, I need lightweight gear now so my FR10 makes total sense at 11.6kg.

I have wondered about other options, like disabling the cabs in Tonex and go in to the FX loop of a combo but then that's more weight again. 

Or power amp then neo speaker cab?

Or into something like Line 6 Catalyst?

It's more gear though...

In my experience of bad-back-inspired gear choices, it's all about the distribution of weight. A small-ish power amp on the board (like a PowerStage or similar) going into a lightweight guitar cab is the way forward, so that the bag with the pedalboard/cables/etc is roughly the same weight as the cab. I reckon that balance is somewhere in the 8-10kg range, ideally.

I mean, the lightest option I've ever had was an HX Stomp -> PS170 -> Barefaced 1x12". Sounded absolutely great (almost as good as the Matrix 2x12", but much better spread of sound), and just a single trip from the car for everything. I'd love to be able to try the ToneX profiles I've got now with that rig in a band context, but there's sadly no chance of that these days.

Those Barefaced cabs look really good but at circa £600 for the stock Vintage 30, these aren't cheap. They do offer lots of variations though re cab size, speaker size, and speaker type (basically any Celestion you want) & you can certainly save a lot of weight if you opt for the Neodymium (reducing weight from 10kg down to 7kg!). Interestingly I read that although these can be very bass heavy, they have a low cut filter switch that also increases power handling and reduces distortion.  Link here for those interested.

https://barefacedaudio.com/products/reformer-112?variant=23404540526650

But you can also have powered versions of any of their cabs, & I found this vid really interesting:

<snip>

So like everything I suppose it depends on your budget, and how fussy you are about your tone.  Personally, for typical pub and smaller club gigs for now at least I'm happy with my Tonelabs through a Headrush FRFR108, but I do still have a few different amp options if I want/need them.   

Yeah, the Activier cabs are prohibitively expensive compared with just whacking a pedal-sized amp on the board. The passive cabs...I think, having tried the one they donated to the forum for a bit, you have to consider them as one size up. The 1x12" sounds like a normal 2x12", the 2x12" like a normal 4x12". Then there's the sheer spread of the sound, which isn't like a normal open-back speaker at all, it completely fills the room. I actually didn't find it bass-heavy at all, even without the low-cut, but I was using the stock V30...it might need the cut if using something like a G12K, though.

They still aren't cheap, but on the other hand...there's not really a way to get that sound in that weight and compact form factor. I mean, there's the Mesa Thiele 1x12", but that only really works when it's got the EV speaker in it, and then it weighs about as much as a small hatchback.

If there's any prospect of me gigging again, with the arthritis in my back, one of those Barefaced cabs is basically the only way I could possibly do it. I'd most likely put a G12K in it, though, because I really dislike the V30.

tekbow

Whats coming through the FRFR is the equivalent of a mic'd up cab heard in the control room through monitors, surely?

Whereas theyre hearing the 412 or whatever cab the rockerverb was using in the room.

So, theyre comparing apples and oranges, no?

thomasw88

did anyone ever try the Tech 21 Power Engine 60?  any good or no real benefit over a ss amp return?

TimmyO

tekbow said:

Whats coming through the FRFR is the equivalent of a mic'd up cab heard in the control room through monitors, surely?

Whereas theyre hearing the 412 or whatever cab the rockerverb was using in the room.

So, theyre comparing apples and oranges, no?

Nothing wrong with doing that if your conclusion is going to be “i conclude that I prefer the taste of oranges” and not “this apple is not an orange! Oh noes “

Lewy

TimmyO said:

tekbow said:

Whats coming through the FRFR is the equivalent of a mic'd up cab heard in the control room through monitors, surely?

Whereas theyre hearing the 412 or whatever cab the rockerverb was using in the room.

So, theyre comparing apples and oranges, no?

Nothing wrong with doing that if your conclusion is going to be “i conclude that I prefer the taste of oranges” and not “this apple is not an orange! Oh noes “

I got the impression that the conclusion of the andertons video was more the latter. And then the pinned comment under the video is more "listen you lot, don;t comment unless you've watched the whole video. We're not saying apples are bad - we just can;t understand why someone would want an apple when they could have an orange."

flying_pie

Lewy said:

TimmyO said:

tekbow said:

Whats coming through the FRFR is the equivalent of a mic'd up cab heard in the control room through monitors, surely?

Whereas theyre hearing the 412 or whatever cab the rockerverb was using in the room.

So, theyre comparing apples and oranges, no?

Nothing wrong with doing that if your conclusion is going to be “i conclude that I prefer the taste of oranges” and not “this apple is not an orange! Oh noes “

I got the impression that the conclusion of the andertons video was more the latter.

That reminds me of the TPS episode where they were using ampless setups and Dan spent the whole episode repeatedly whining "yeah it sounds good... but it's just not the same"

while wearing headphones