Andertons video became an FRFR critique

Danny1969

aconitethrill said:

Genuine question which is not really in line with what the video was going for… how do those PS170 into a real 1x12 rigs fare at low volumes? I mean actual bedroom level volumes, not ‘I hate my neighbours’ volumes?

Recognise there are all kinds of options that are actually designed for that use case, but as someone who was weighing up a bigger FRFR setup, it’s an intriguing alternative that I hadn’t really been considering!

The PS170 is a generic class D amp stereo amp made by Icepower  in bridge tied load configuration, which means it uses the power of both channels to drive more power into a single load. It's used in sub woofers, surround sound speakers etc as well as guitar amps and amp pedals. It's fine at low volume as there's nothing to be gained by turning it up except for driving the speaker harder. 

You can make a PS170 clone for about £150 

soma1975

funkyfraz said:

Surely they're also missing a key point of FRFR and modelling? Within a click of a footswitch you could be playing through an ENGL, or a jtm45. If you turn up with an Orange rig, you will sound like an orange rig the whole gig.  OK, as a direct comparison, each indivudal amp would win, but the model is close enough for 90% of applications, and the fact you have all the options literally at your big toe, you get alot more for the weight, cost, practicality and so on.

We are getting to the point where, like people thinking a Marshall in a Box Pedal is the sound of a Marshall, people are starting to think a Dumble preset sounds/feels like a Dumble etc. 

There are no bad sounds - just the right sound for the song - and use whatever works best for your needs - but some people want the sound of a Marshall, not the sound of a thing trying to sound like a Marshall. 

It has nothing to do with being a luddite or not getting tech. If it was identical in sound and feel given the way I play I'd use it. 

topdog91

funkyfraz said:

Surely they're also missing a key point of FRFR and modelling? Within a click of a footswitch you could be playing through an ENGL, or a jtm45. If you turn up with an Orange rig, you will sound like an orange rig the whole gig.  OK, as a direct comparison, each indivudal amp would win, but the model is close enough for 90% of applications, and the fact you have all the options literally at your big toe, you get alot more for the weight, cost, practicality and so on.

This particular application is overrated live IMO. The different EQs and volumes etc (yes I know they can be tweaked) tend to create a headache and make the whole less coherent. Maybe okay for a couple of amp models but generally live if I went direct I would try to limit to one amp and cab model with various effects. Part of the problem some people have with modellers (paralysis by analysis) can be solved by ignoring most of the options and using a few options to get the sound one is looking for.

EricTheWeary

topdog91 said:

funkyfraz said:

Surely they're also missing a key point of FRFR and modelling? Within a click of a footswitch you could be playing through an ENGL, or a jtm45. If you turn up with an Orange rig, you will sound like an orange rig the whole gig.  OK, as a direct comparison, each indivudal amp would win, but the model is close enough for 90% of applications, and the fact you have all the options literally at your big toe, you get alot more for the weight, cost, practicality and so on.

This particular application is overrated live IMO. The different EQs and volumes etc (yes I know they can be tweaked) tend to create a headache and make the whole less coherent. Maybe okay for a couple of amp models but generally live if I went direct I would try to limit to one amp and cab model with various effects. Part of the problem some people have with modellers (paralysis by analysis) can be solved by ignoring most of the options and using a few options to get the sound one is looking for.

That goes back to the Rob Harris video I posted. Pro guitarist playing big gigs using modelling and FRFR for convenience and consistency but to sound like one really good amp, not trying to recreate twenty exact sounds. 

digitalscream

topdog91 said:

funkyfraz said:

Surely they're also missing a key point of FRFR and modelling? Within a click of a footswitch you could be playing through an ENGL, or a jtm45. If you turn up with an Orange rig, you will sound like an orange rig the whole gig.  OK, as a direct comparison, each indivudal amp would win, but the model is close enough for 90% of applications, and the fact you have all the options literally at your big toe, you get alot more for the weight, cost, practicality and so on.

This particular application is overrated live IMO. The different EQs and volumes etc (yes I know they can be tweaked) tend to create a headache and make the whole less coherent. Maybe okay for a couple of amp models but generally live if I went direct I would try to limit to one amp and cab model with various effects. Part of the problem some people have with modellers (paralysis by analysis) can be solved by ignoring most of the options and using a few options to get the sound one is looking for.

And, more to the point, the only point of FRFR is to be able to use multiple cab models. I've done this before, and in my opinion it's actually too jarring and too much of a change to the overall mix if you get two cabs that are different enough to warrant doing it in the first place.

So...I always just used multiple amp models into a single cab block. For one band it was usually something Bogner-esque for chunky rhythm stuff and Soldano-esque for lead, and for the other it was both channels of an SLO.

PLOP

aconitethrill said:

Genuine question which is not really in line with what the video was going for… how do those PS170 into a real 1x12 rigs fare at low volumes? I mean actual bedroom level volumes, not ‘I hate my neighbours’ volumes?

Recognise there are all kinds of options that are actually designed for that use case, but as someone who was weighing up a bigger FRFR setup, it’s an intriguing alternative that I hadn’t really been considering!

I use a helix into a 200w Warwick gnome bass head, which is basically a clean poweramp when the eq is all at 12:00, then into a Marshall 2x12. 

I think it sounds great at all volumes, and I live in a terraced house. I’d say 50% of the time I play quietly enough that I can still hear the strings acoustically, which I know isn’t very metal. I like to leave the helix volume knob at 12:00ish so I can easily make quick adjustments up or down, but the volume and gain of the gnome head are practically as low as they can get. If the pot starts at ~7:00, neither of them gets beyond ~8:00 when I’m at home. In the band I turn both of them to ~10:00 and it’s enough. Any more and it begins to threaten the drummer. 

Trude

I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I moved to modellers soon after the band I was in started using IEMs.  Nowadays I also use a Boss synth pedal and dual output guitars with acoustic sounds, all coming through the same single output from my GT1000 Core.  For band gigs, the standard electric sounds are still the most important part, but the other sounds really open things up (especially as we're a 3-piece).

I do like to have some on-stage sound, not just for the volume interaction and to balance with the drums, but also as an emergency backup.  I was depping for a function band once when the digital mixer spontaneously rebooted.  The FOH was still working, but all the IEM feeds dropped out for about a minute or so.  Because my amp was right behind me, I just yanked out one IEM and carried on playing.

So far though I'm using a normal guitar amp with 12" speaker and the cab sims disabled (Quilter Cub UK) and I find this works well enough for what I need it to do.  The synths sound pretty good through that amp.  The acoustic sound obviously gets lost, but I don't feel a desperate need to have that also coming through at full fidelity on stage when the PA and IEMs are handling it just fine.

I have thought about trying an FRFR cab, but there's another benefit to using a "real" amp instead that makes me think twice.  Nobody else seems to mention this, but I have this fear that one day my modeller might crap out on me, or maybe my pedal board power supply will blow up, leaving me to limp through the gig with just my amp.  I like knowing that if push comes to shove I can plug straight in, dial up a crunchy sound and just play the gig that way.  No FRFR cab would sound good in that situation (yes, I know I could bring a spare modeller, but that's one more thing to remember).  It'll probably never happen, but what if it does?

Another thing I can't quite wrap my head around is the apparent contradiction that FRFR cabs and PA speakers are both trying to sound as flat and neutral as possible, but that somehow the cabs marketed at guitarists are supposed to sound better for guitar purposes?  I just fundamentally can't make that make sense.  I admit they look better, but I'd find it hard to justify owning yet another iteration of a powered box with a speaker in it (I have enough PA gear already!).  I'd like to try an FRFR but just can't be arsed to travel to do that now that PMT has gone (Portsmouth branch used to be 10 mins away)