What's the point of an FRFR cab?

Devil#20

It's a genuine question. I only use valve amps but I'm thinking of moving a couple of them on and going down the amp modelling route but I've got some fairly basic questions I need to clarify in my own mind.

What makes a dedicated FRFR cabinet neutrally sounding over say any other cabinet? It's a box and contains speaker/speakers so will have it's own characteristic and won't and probably doesn't sound the same as a different manufacturers FRFR cab?

I have a Soldano 1x12 which obviously isn't powered like an FRFR cab but again the power stage of the FRFR cab will also have it's characteristics depending in manufacturer. So if I get a Quadcore/Helix/Fractal or what have you, then why would my Soldano and say a Seymour Duncan power stage not work just as well as a dedicated FRFR cab with any of the above modellers?

Surely an amp modeller used through a particular FRFR cab will not sound the same as when played through a different FRFR cab. Who's to say that my Soldano and SD power stage wouldn't be closer to a particular vintage amp tone I'm trying to emulate rather than going through an FRFR cab.

I suppose summarising, what is an FRFR cab giving me that any other cab and power stage isn't when it comes to simulating closest to the real thing, be it AC30, JCM800, Fender Twin Reverb etc? Am I missing something fundamental here?

TimmyO

I think different people will have different ideas about what bits are important, but thinking about it some people may think that the way to sound most like a Fender Twin (open back 2 x 12 with particular speakers in) would be to fully 'model' that and the just 'en-louden' it - and be of the view that FRFR is a good way to en-louden. 

Someone else may think that the power amp return on a random combo with whatever speaker and speaker config it has, fed with a Fender Twin preamp model is a more preferable sound. 

They'll be different. 

Some people will prefer the sound of one over the other, and some people will have decided without out hearing which is the best and then be certain of that. 

exocet

Devil#20 said:

It's a genuine question. I only use valve amps but I'm thinking of moving a couple of them on and going down the amp modelling route but I've got some fairly basic questions I need to clarify in my own mind.

What makes a dedicated FRFR cabinet neutrally sounding over say any other cabinet? It's a box and contains speaker/speakers so will have it's own characteristic and won't and probably doesn't sound the same as a different manufacturers FRFR cab?

I have a Soldano 1x12 which obviously isn't powered like an FRFR cab but again the power stage of the FRFR cab will also have it's characteristics depending in manufacturer. So if I get a Quadcore/Helix/Fractal or what have you, then why would my Soldano and say a Seymour Duncan power stage not work just as well as a dedicated FRFR cab with any of the above modellers?

Surely an amp modeller used through a particular FRFR cab will not sound the same as when played through a different FRFR cab. Who's to say that my Soldano and SD power stage wouldn't be closer to a particular vintage amp tone I'm trying to emulate rather than going through an FRFR cab.

I suppose summarising, what is an FRFR cab giving me that any other cab and power stage isn't when it comes to simulating closest to the real thing, be it AC30, JCM800, Fender Twin Reverb etc? Am I missing something fundamental here?

FRFR cabs generally have a HF "Tweeter" unit added. This is used to "fill in the gaps" in the upper mids / treble frequencies that are typically missing / vary widely with different guitar speaker sizes and brands / cabinet constructions etc. So, yes, it's closer to a PA speaker than a standard guitar drive unit.

The idea is to give a flatter response thereby allowing different Impulse Responses to be used (typically by the modelling device). In this way you can swictch between the tones (frequency responses) of many different speaker sizes / configurations - 1 x 12, 4 x 10, 4 x 12 etc etc).

Whether the end results are representative of what you'd expect....that's another matter.

bloodandtears

plenty of opinions here..

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/287135/andertons-video-became-an-frfr-critique

Lewy

The point of an FRFR cab is to do the job of a powered PA speaker whilst looking more like a guitar cab.

Sporky

FRFR stands for Full Range, Flat Response.

So where a guitar cab will produce very little below 100Hz or above 4kHz, an FRFR should go deeper and (possibly more importantly) higher. It should also not have much in the way of resonant spikes. More like a big monitor speaker, or a small PA speaker (as Lewy says).

Roland

What’s the point? To provide frequencies which a guitar cabinet won’t. 

Why might you want this? You might want to sound like a Marshall 4x12 one day, and a Fender 2x10 the next. In my case I want to get electric, acoustic, and/or synth sounds in the same song.

LionAquaLooper

Some people on the interweb say some FRFRs aren't really full range flat response.  YMMV.  My ears aren't sensitive enough to know.  But I bought a Headrush FRFR because it's smaller and lighter than my 40W Marshall combo, has bluetooth, 2 inputs with independent levels, a direct output jack, and is as loud as my combo.  And a lot of people do swear by them in terms of audio performance, so I their collective word is good enough by me.  

Sporky

LionAquaLooper said:

Some people on the interweb say some FRFRs aren't really full range flat response. 

Some probably aren't, but I suspect it depends on what you mean by the term. How flat, and how full range? 

thecolourbox

There are multiple valid options and that's a good thing for players, to have a choice. You should choose what's going to help you enjoy playing, or at the least what gives you the best sound when pointing at your intended audience.

If you're using models that suit the traditional guitar cab you have then I'm sure it could sound good. When I've tried it, I found that for example a Fender model and a Marshall model would need different cabs. With an FRFR and cab sim or IR, you could do that pretty easily, so i guess that's one of their intended selling points.

I personally am weird and I prefer a recorded sound to an "amp in the room" live sound, so that's the big benefit for me. Plus I can use the same FRFR for guitar, acoustic, piano, or putting a vocal through it, and it does a reasonable job at each of them.

But if you already have the power amp and cab, it sounds like you'd be happy enough with that so probably not worth the bother worrying about FRFR

andy_k

My experience here is limited, as I don't own / haven't tried a FRFR, but I have experimented with a variety of cabs / power stages, all limited to home use.
The speaker choice has the most drastic effect, to my ears, but any differences can be equalised, obv, by the use of the eq in the amp model itself.
I do most of my playing through a fairly old (worn in ) Roland 12 inch speaker, in a 1x12 Cube cab, via a cheap battery powered hi-fi headphone amp, which is perfect volume for home use, but get a very different, brighter, sound when using a newer Fane F70 in a larger Zilla 1 x 12, not a worse tone, just different, and I could easily alter the patch to make one sound like the other.
I have tried turning off the cab models, in Tonex, but to my ears they sound better with the cab / mic sections left on, which generally isn't correct when using a guitar cab - and maybe they don't sound as 'accurate' this way, but they do sound damn good.
It is all pretty well explained in the Andertons vid, and if I had a FRFR cab, I guess my mind might be changed, but in essence, a mic'd cab model isn't adding enough substantially, frequency wise, to justify the FRFR, and if it is - it would have to be eq'd out again to fit in with the band, highs would sound harsh and lows would interfere with the bass - guitar uses a fairly narrow range as it is.
I'd have to audition a few things against each other to decide which is 'best', but a 4x12 model played through a 1 x 12 cab, isn't going to sound like a 4 x 12, it might sound good however.
All very subjective really, if it sounds good, it is good.
YMMV

Devil#20

thecolourbox said:

But if you already have the power amp and cab, it sounds like you'd be happy enough with that so probably not worth the bother worrying about FRFR

Ah, I have the cab but not the power amp at the moment, which is probably going to cost me ~£500 if I go down that route. With a 1x12 cab I'd expect to be able to get a close match to any 1x12 amp (HRD etc) but don't know if it would do a very good job of a Twin say and less so a 4x10) but I would have said the same of an FRFR until I read above that they have a higher frequency speaker shoved in there. However, if the vintage amps don't have a lot of high frequency content in them I''m not sure that would help the emulation fidelity much. At the moment my thinking is to keep the Soldano cab and compare that to the real thing (I have a Princeton Rever and a Deluxe Reverb for comparison) and if it's convincing then stick with it. If I subsequently decide to get an FRFR I've then got the hassle of not just selling the Soldano but the power amp stage too, and not long I've I'll have bought it so I could be taking a bath. It's sounds like my best bet is just to go the FRFR route and sell the Soldano. Not that I've had too many but it's the best cab I've had too.  

andy_k

Devil#20 said:

thecolourbox said:

But if you already have the power amp and cab, it sounds like you'd be happy enough with that so probably not worth the bother worrying about FRFR

Ah, I have the cab but not the power amp at the moment, which is probably going to cost me ~£500 if I go down that route. With a 1x12 cab I'd expect to be able to get a close match to any 1x12 amp (HRD etc) but don't know if it would do a very good job of a Twin say and less so a 4x10) but I would have said the same of an FRFR until I read above that they have a higher frequency speaker shoved in there. However, if the vintage amps don't have a lot of high frequency content in them I''m not sure that would help the emulation fidelity much. At the moment my thinking is to keep the Soldano cab and compare that to the real thing (I have a Princeton Rever and a Deluxe Reverb for comparison) and if it's convincing then stick with it. If I subsequently decide to get an FRFR I've then got the hassle of not just selling the Soldano but the power amp stage too, and not long I've I'll have bought it so I could be taking a bath. It's sounds like my best bet is just to go the FRFR route and sell the Soldano. Not that I've had too many but it's the best cab I've had too.  

As a stepping stone, why not try something like an EHX 44cal, or a 5mm (you don't say what vol you need?), but I reckon my 5mm could keep up with a reasonable drummer, stage vols are pretty low these days.
Try a Tonex T1 for an equally cheap way in - or even one of the Chinese things that do NAM, the actual tone models are all that good these days.

Beexter

Roland said:

What’s the point? To provide frequencies which a guitar cabinet won’t. 

Why might you want this? You might want to sound like a Marshall 4x12 one day, and a Fender 2x10 the next. In my case I want to get electric, acoustic, and/or synth sounds in the same song.

^this. The short answer is flexibility.

I use a Fractal FM9 for gigging in a covers band and using an FRFR cab (Fender FR10 in my case) opens up a world of flexibility I could never achieve through a regular guitar cab. In addition to regular electric guitar tones, like @Roland, I use a synth pedal for some tracks, a looper pedal for triggering piano samples,and a piezo pickup equipped guitar for acoustic sounds. Any of those last three NEED to run through an FRFR solution to sound as they should, without the tone roll-off inherent with speakers designed for guitar cabs. An FRFR speaker opens the door to the huge range of amps, cabs and speakers that modelling brings to the party. It's not always going to be the best option for everyone but it will always be the most flexible.

Voxman

LionAquaLooper said:

Some people on the interweb say some FRFRs aren't really full range flat response.  YMMV.  My ears aren't sensitive enough to know.  But I bought a Headrush FRFR because it's smaller and lighter than my 40W Marshall combo, has bluetooth, 2 inputs with independent levels, a direct output jack, and is as loud as my combo.  And a lot of people do swear by them in terms of audio performance, so I their collective word is good enough by me.  

Yup.

I used to gig with big heavy valve amps, but I'm now too old and my back is too weak to schlepp these. So I need as light a gigging rig as is reasonably practical that still sounds good and has plenty of volume.

The combination of a Headrush FRFR108 on a *tripod (*essential) and mfx (most typically my Vox Tonelab LE) is a solution that works well for me. It lets me use my mfx fully ie amp, fax and cab models and I can carry my guitar, 108 (only 19lbs) and mfx in a single trip, to and from the car. 

I still have 6 amps, 2 extn cabs and a conventional pedal board which give me options if needed. I was going to sell a couple of amps but as I think most here appreciate, heavy valve amps on the used market are not exactly flying off the shelves at the moment, so for now I'll hold on to these.  

gearaddict

For me the main point was you could use your modeller patches as 'intended' with a cab sim / IR - so it's the same exact patch whether you are using IEMs, going to a FoH PA or using your FRFR backline. So it's super simple.

The issue I had was I just thought it didn't sound that great through the FRFR, so for me it is worth the additional hassle of having a separate output from the modeller with cab sims off to run into a power amp and real guitar speaker cab. I much prefer the sounds.

Nerine

Depends what you want. 

If you want it to sound like an amp in the room, use the guitar cab with a power amp. 

If you want it to sound like what the audience hopefully hears through front of house and you want a duplicate of that, get a PA wedge or some FRFR thing. 

Depending on the modeller used, I think a power amp and cab setup is most versatile and sounds best seeing as you can still go direct to the PA with IRs etc. 

grungebob

In my limited experience with this my Headrush FR08 made my Pod Go sound better than running it instead into the power section and speaker of my valve combo. 

I found the biggest difference was the actual model’s make though. The Headrush mx5 was meh, the Pod Go a marked improvement, the Tonex One another leap in improvement but the best two where a Friedman IR-X into the Headrush FR08 and a victory countess v4 pre amp into a two notes opus into the FR08. 

The last two were the best sound and solution for me and my ears. 

maharg101

With regards to emulating the sound of different cabs / speakers e.g. 1x10 Greenback vs 4x12 V30s and G12H, I have to ask..

Is the aim to emulate the near field, or far field sound of those cabs ?

I guess the point might be that you can do either. But then what about the near field / far field characteristics of the FRFR cab ?

On second thoughts, I don't want to know the answer. I'll stick with the tried and trusted guitar cabs, albeit with new fangled directivity modifiers (donuts).

exocet

maharg101 said:

With regards to emulating the sound of different cabs / speakers e.g. 1x10 Greenback vs 4x12 V30s and G12H, I have to ask..

Is the aim to emulate the near field, or far field sound of those cabs ?

I guess the point might be that you can do either. But then what about the near field / far field characteristics of the FRFR cab ?

On second thoughts, I don't want to know the answer. I'll stick with the tried and trusted guitar cabs, albeit with new fangled directivity modifiers (donuts).

Most IRs are Nearfield captures, but there are a few that take a farfield approach.