Stage volume Q / Sanity check

stickyfiddle

Concerning stage volume for my upcoming gig...

Situation:
We'll have real acoustic drums, guitar amps, but DI bass and keys. All using in-ears for monitoring.

Venue is approx 200 cap including some seated at tables around the edge. The stage is pictured below - it's pretty big for the room. 

I am definitely going to use my Fender Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb with pedals, and was considering adding a Matchless 20W Laurel Canyon for lower midrange and to allow stereo modulation (and because it'll look good for stage-dressing). TMDR will be halfway up the dial on wattage (probably max 1W mode) and LC will be with the MV quite low. 

Following a noisy rehearsal in a small room where the in-ears weren't working some of the band is concerned I'll be too loud (noting that those concerned as those who don't have earplugs when not using in-ears). I think it'll be fine if I match the level of the drums and also there are a couple of points where I need a chunk of feedback, so need some volume to get there. I could barely hear myself over the drums last night and the amp was only on 2 vol (0.5W mode)

My gear is very intentionally selected so I'm not crazy loud but I haven't played a venue like this in years so want a sanity check... Thoughts please! 

Winny_Pooh

Guitar amps are beamy so don't have it at your ankles facing the front row. Have it shooting across the stage so it slightly fills in the "acoustic" sound for the audience and softer than the drums so that FOH have some control. I assume you'll have the gtr in the PA too. Then the PA is doing the rest. 

flying_pie

If you're not loulder than the drums then you're not too loud. End of. 

Just make sure that you don't play first. Let the drummer stay playing them gradually turn up to join them. If you wait for people to get used to the drummer then you won't seem as loud.

If you set up first then immediately burst out the start of Eruption at gig volume then the shock will make them think you're too loud. Always let people get used to the drums first

stickyfiddle

Winny_Pooh said:

Guitar amps are beamy so don't have it at your ankles facing the front row. Have it shooting across the stage so it slightly fills in the "acoustic" sound for the audience and softer than the drums so that FOH have some control. I assume you'll have the gtr in the PA too. Then the PA is doing the rest. 

Yep - this is my standard approach. I’ve specced that I need a riser on my side to get amp(s) to my own waist height (and over the heads of the crowd), and again the double amp is very much for spread, not volume 

flying_pie said:

If you're not loulder than the drums then you're not too loud. End of. 

Just make sure that you don't play first. Let the drummer stay playing them gradually turn up to join them. If you wait for people to get used to the drummer then you won't seem as loud.

If you set up first then immediately burst out the start of Eruption at gig volume then the shock will make them think you're too loud. Always let people get used to the drums first

This is a fantastic suggestion  

It’s a compound impact I think, from folks used to an a Capella jazz group and just playing at home, plus the sudden change from in ears with full control to fully in-room sound with zero control, and in a small and very “reflecty” room to boot. 

A big stage with a softly-furnished room full of bodies is quite a different prospect, but I suspect I may be the only one who knows that besides the drummer

Snags

Shouldn't have got them used to in-ears  

Match the amp to the drums. Regarding the second amp,  what's providing your main FOH volume? If you're using in-ears you're presumably running everything through the desk, so your "spread" should really be coming from the PA not the stage volume.

I use a vertical 2x12 for spread, but that's because we run fairly traditional with only a small amount of guitar in the PA, and our amps are our primary personal monitors, with vocals fed through floor monitors.

ESBlonde

If you’ve got guitar in your ears, the need for stage volume is greatly diminished. At that point it’s a tone generator (and possible feedback generator too).
But I’m a big advocate of old school live sounds and wedges, because I’ve done it that way for decades. These days I get asked to go direct with IEM and listen to clicks/tracks/queues. The care for source is degraded to the possible benefit of the consistent overall audience experience. 

stickyfiddle

Snags said:

Shouldn't have got them used to in-ears  

Match the amp to the drums. Regarding the second amp,  what's providing your main FOH volume? If you're using in-ears you're presumably running everything through the desk, so your "spread" should really be coming from the PA not the stage volume.

I use a vertical 2x12 for spread, but that's because we run fairly traditional with only a small amount of guitar in the PA, and our amps are our primary personal monitors, with vocals fed through floor monitors.

The second amp is mostly for modulations, and partly redundancy, and partly because it’s a huge stage and it’ll look good  

Obviously most of the room-filling sound will be from the PA. That’s exactly the point. 

(And the in-ears weren’t my idea - I’d always rather have a good mix on stage and ear plugs because hearing damage is a real thing and you can’t turn your own level up with plugs, but IEMs are easy to push into damage territory without realising you’re getting up there

stickyfiddle

ESBlonde said:

If you’ve got guitar in your ears, the need for stage volume is greatly diminished. At that point it’s a tone generator (and possible feedback generator too). 

Yeah, I totally get that, and that's good imo compared with the old days of blaring JCM800s etc etc 

But equally I've realised actually quite a big part of how I play guitar relies on a semi acoustic guitar and enough stage volume to get the air inside moving for a little bit of feedback. And that's incredibly difficult to acheive if there's no amp volume, clearly! In my originals band I used to run a little Laney VC15 which was not very loud, but have a bunch of it in the PA and a bunch of it in the wedge pointing right back at me. That was a fantastic little setup. 

But further to the feedback thing, another part of it is we're trying to put on a show, not just stand there and play some songs. A rock & roll show should be loud and should have a bit of feedback and excitement - that's the whole point. 

ESBlonde said:

But I’m a big advocate of old school live sounds and wedges, because I’ve done it that way for decades. These days I get asked to go direct with IEM and listen to clicks/tracks/queues. The care for source is degraded to the possible benefit of the consistent overall audience experience. 

This is a really interesting topic that might warrant its own thread. I do wonder if part of why so many bands are so on-rails (and dull...) is because they're not actually listening to each other, but just the drums and their own part and some prerecorded cues or whatever. I heard an IEM mix on reddit the other day that was 90% drums & guitar and hardly any bass or vocals. I couldn't do it.

I note all the best musos I've played with have always just wanted something resembling the FOH mix with themselves a smidge louder because they need that to perform at their best - playing off the other players. IIRC Prince stipulated that everyone should have the same mix, including himself, because everyone's job included trying to make the overall mix sound perfect, which you can't do if you're all in your own little worlds 

Whistler

With a sound engineer IEMs can be ideal as you can choose what you want to hear and the sound engineer takes care of what he thinks the audience needs to hear - mix and volume.

Without a sound engineer many bands can try to mix their own sound from their positions on the stage, which as we all know is not the ideal mix for the audience - it cannot be due to physics of audio. In this situation IEMs can be more a hindrance than a help as no one on the stage can even remotely guess the correct FOH mix. If you don't have a sound engineer at least take a trusted friend who can tell everyone on the stage what is working and what is not working from where the audience will be.

stickyfiddle

Whistler said:

With a sound engineer IEMs can be ideal as you can choose what you want to hear and the sound engineer takes care of what he thinks the audience needs to hear - mix and volume.

Without a sound engineer many bands can try to mix their own sound from their positions on the stage, which as we all know is not the ideal mix for the audience - it cannot be due to physics of audio. In this situation IEMs can be more a hindrance than a help as no one on the stage can even remotely guess the correct FOH mix. If you don't have a sound engineer at least take a trusted friend who can tell everyone on the stage what is working and what is not working from where the audience will be.

Yep. We def have a soundguy who knows the room and is apparently quite competent, so all good there I believe!

roberty

flying_pie said:

Just make sure that you don't play first. Let the drummer stay playing them gradually turn up to join them. If you wait for people to get used to the drummer then you won't seem as loud.

Learnt that the hard way - most engineers will scold you reflexively without a reference

roberty

Is it still a thing that guitar players insist on being too loud or are we all woke now? (By woke definitionally "at least vaguely considerate" lol)

stickyfiddle

roberty said:

Is it still a thing that guitar players insist on being too loud or are we all woke now? (By woke definitionally "at least vaguely considerate" lol)

It's still a thing that everyone else thinks all of us just want to turn up all the time....  

(I do want to hear a tonne of my own signal, but most importantly I want the mix to be right. A rock & roll mix that's right has quite a lot of guitar in it but not louder than the singing!)

roberty

stickyfiddle said:

roberty said:

Is it still a thing that guitar players insist on being too loud or are we all woke now? (By woke definitionally "at least vaguely considerate" lol)

It's still a thing that everyone else thinks all of us just want to turn up all the time....  

(I do want to hear a tonne of my own signal, but most importantly I want the mix to be right. A rock & roll mix that's right has quite a lot of guitar in it but not louder than the singing!)

True. In a small-medium venue that means sound reinforcement. Some engineers want full control at all times, no wonder they are so grumpy

Directionality has a lot to do with it as @Winny_Pooh says. Really they are designed to project for public address. Tilting them back or getting them to head height helps a lot combined with angling across

You can't really compare the SPLs of a rehearsal room vs a venue space so I wouldn't worry about it. A stereo rig will sound great out front with some stage bleed

roberty

I always had a better time on stage with 2x12s vs 1x12. Did a lot of gigs with a brass section who would need all the available monitoring and at the same time were sensitive to guitar volume. Having a bit of spread there helped for audibility while keeping the overall volume down

Danny1969

The room looks good in as much as there's a carpet and some treatment on the walls. This will help tame the kit down. Volume wise there's more to consider than what's been discussed. What are you trying to do, be a polite band in the background while people chat or are they there to see you ? 

All the bands I play for are loud, but that's ok as long as it's a solid musical loud. A good drummer is loud and it's fine because it's musical. A bad drummer playing loud just sounds like someone building a shed ...annoying!

Start the drummer playing a solid groove. Mix in the bass and guitars so that's all good and the PA isn't even switched on. Then add the vocals in the PA and all should sound fine with very little work needed from FOH 

As it's early days for you and iEM's I would have a safety wedge setup. It can take a lot of gigs to get used to IEM's 

stickyfiddle

Cheers @Danny1969 I totally agree. 

My view is people are paying to see us specifically, and we’re a good band so we should act like it, and that goes across the whole show from gear to setup to clothing, lighting, performance etc etc. I'm trying very hard to properly own this to as pro level as possible and not compromise on anything that we don't have to. PA should be there just to bolster/EQ/Comp the drums & guitar where needed, not make them louder as such

I’ve said the same re backup wedges. I think it’s a good idea not least because while we’ve all now done a few rehearsals with IEMs some of us have never done a whole gig with them. And frankly also just because the system might go down in which case having a way to keep the show going is always a good thing 

maltingsaudio

How do you get a musician to panic… get them a gig!

If   you’re getting a soundcheck all will be good if you trust and listen to the engineer. My thoughts are: stage looks a bit small, not sure stereo modulation will be noticed by the audience or even yourself !obviously make sure both cabs mic’s and panned. 

Does the room have a sound limiter?

I assume your bringing in your own FOH, not using the speakers in the picture.

ICBM

I would use the Matchless for the feedback with it raised, possibly tilted back slightly - so it’s pointing directly at the guitar - and the Tonemaster to add more spread. The Matchless will work better for that because they’re inherently compressed and more midrangy - so any beam out into the room will also be worse - whereas the Fender is a softer, more scooped sound (but still raise it and don’t point it straight out front).

ElectricXII

I wouldn't worry about being too loud with your setup along with acoustic drums, and the sound guy will quickly tell you if he thinks this is the case. My personal experience of using a two amp setup is that firstly, it's a faff, and secondly, you have no way of knowing whether the audience is hearing all of your carefully crafted wet/dry/stereo/whatever tone. 

The last time I brought two amps, the engineer told me he preferred the tone of one over the other and just put that one in the FOH mix.

stickyfiddle

We have the room from about 2pm so can do a lot of work getting eveything right. The in-house PA is plenty. I’ve been to gigs in there before and heard it sound great. I dot know if the stereo swirl will be noticeable in the room but it will be in my IEMs and that’s all that matters

And as I say, it’s at least 33% about the visual…

@icbm yeah that’s pretty much the plan i think. Both definitely on a chunky riser and hopefully slightly upward-tilted. Bear in mind this Matchless is the slightly-fender-flavoured  one so not quite as chunky sounding as most others but still way more mid than my DR.