IEMs, Clicks, and Pub Bands

borntohang

I'm much less concerned about IEMs as I am the trend for pub bands using crap Temu Special wireless guitar and monitor transmitters because "they don't want to feel tied down" while playing the Dog and Duck, or even the Frog and Etc. Done a couple of sub keys gigs recently where there was so much wireless interaction floating around that the guitarists sounded like they were frying bacon between songs.

Always go wired until you're willing to shell out for pro quality wireless, and unless you were using unpowered monitors then you can just replace your monitor feed with the belt pack.

Stratavarious

There are a few venues we play that say ‘no backing tracks’.. probably to avoid people thinking it’s a karaoke night.  

topdog91

borntohang said:

I'm much less concerned about IEMs as I am the trend for pub bands using crap Temu Special wireless guitar and monitor transmitters because "they don't want to feel tied down" while playing the Dog and Duck, or even the Frog and Etc. Done a couple of sub keys gigs recently where there was so much wireless interaction floating around that the guitarists sounded like they were frying bacon between songs.

Always go wired until you're willing to shell out for pro quality wireless, and unless you were using unpowered monitors then you can just replace your monitor feed with the belt pack.

I tried Lekatos down the social clubs, loved them until I realized that they added loads of noise to my signal chain to the point where even my tinnitus suffering band mates asked what that noise was. Love the idea but in practice not for me at this time.

Disclaimer: Never bothered to find out if it was a weird interaction with my guitar or amp. I originally thought it was the Helix but nope.
https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/284247/noisy-lekato-5-8-ghz-wireless-its-not-the-helix-after-all

Roland

topdog91 said:

borntohang said:

I'm much less concerned about IEMs as I am the trend for pub bands using crap Temu Special wireless guitar and monitor transmitters .

I tried Lekatos down the social clubs, loved them until I realized that they added loads of noise to my signal chain...

A previous band member delighted in using cheap wireless gear. Although rooted to the spot he would use wireless for IEMs, mic, and instrument. There was so much radio noise that I had to hard wire my iPad into the mixer before we could play. 

ESBlonde

One potential downside to an IEM rig is the need to mic up a traditional drum kit irrespective of the loudness of the gig, just to feed the ears mix. Not a problem for a full on electric kit though. 

Mostly these days I’m playing in 3 or 4 piece bands in social clubs and the odd pub. I use a 15w valve combo and nothing but the kick  drum and acoustic guitar are reinforced by the PA (obviously the 3 part vocals do too). My ears don’t ring after a gig and I can hear everything clearly. On Saturday we rocked up to a club and set up, the sound check was a verse and chorus of one song, everything was crystal clear on stage and FOH (unmanned) sounded good off the bat. A digital desk helps with the recall of settings of course. 

I have an IEM setup, but prefer not to use it if possible. Use what works for you and the event you are entertaining at.

bloodandtears

ESBlonde said:

One potential downside to an IEM rig is the need to mic up a traditional drum kit irrespective of the loudness of the gig, just to feed the ears mix. Not a problem for a full on electric kit though. 

Mostly these days I’m playing in 3 or 4 piece bands in social clubs and the odd pub. I use a 15w valve combo and nothing but the kick  drum and acoustic guitar are reinforced by the PA (obviously the 3 part vocals do too). My ears don’t ring after a gig and I can hear everything clearly. On Saturday we rocked up to a club and set up, the sound check was a verse and chorus of one song, everything was crystal clear on stage and FOH (unmanned) sounded good off the bat. A digital desk helps with the recall of settings of course. 

I have an IEM setup, but prefer not to use it if possible. Use what works for you and the event you are entertaining at.

I only use one ear (my left ear which faces the cymbals/drummer side)... my feed is mono anyway.. 

topdog91

bloodandtears said:

ESBlonde said:

One potential downside to an IEM rig is the need to mic up a traditional drum kit irrespective of the loudness of the gig, just to feed the ears mix. Not a problem for a full on electric kit though. 

Mostly these days I’m playing in 3 or 4 piece bands in social clubs and the odd pub. I use a 15w valve combo and nothing but the kick  drum and acoustic guitar are reinforced by the PA (obviously the 3 part vocals do too). My ears don’t ring after a gig and I can hear everything clearly. On Saturday we rocked up to a club and set up, the sound check was a verse and chorus of one song, everything was crystal clear on stage and FOH (unmanned) sounded good off the bat. A digital desk helps with the recall of settings of course. 

I have an IEM setup, but prefer not to use it if possible. Use what works for you and the event you are entertaining at.

I only use one ear (my left ear which faces the cymbals/drummer side)... my feed is mono anyway.. 

Is that not risky for hearing damage?

Sporky

Snags said:

Maybe I'm just lucky in that I play with a bunch of co-operative adults who are focused on the team goal and mostly listen when I tell them to turn the fuck down during soundcheck etc.

Ah - you're in a band with no musicians, nice!  

bloodandtears

topdog91 said:

bloodandtears said:

ESBlonde said:

One potential downside to an IEM rig is the need to mic up a traditional drum kit irrespective of the loudness of the gig, just to feed the ears mix. Not a problem for a full on electric kit though. 

Mostly these days I’m playing in 3 or 4 piece bands in social clubs and the odd pub. I use a 15w valve combo and nothing but the kick  drum and acoustic guitar are reinforced by the PA (obviously the 3 part vocals do too). My ears don’t ring after a gig and I can hear everything clearly. On Saturday we rocked up to a club and set up, the sound check was a verse and chorus of one song, everything was crystal clear on stage and FOH (unmanned) sounded good off the bat. A digital desk helps with the recall of settings of course. 

I have an IEM setup, but prefer not to use it if possible. Use what works for you and the event you are entertaining at.

I only use one ear (my left ear which faces the cymbals/drummer side)... my feed is mono anyway.. 

Is that not risky for hearing damage?

My other ear faces away so it's less affected by on stage noise,  allowing me it still hear the foh and audience.

Of course there is still risk by leaving my right ear exposed but better than having nothing like when I started out in bands. I had made the decision to protect my left ear from the drummer so uses IEMs made sense as opposed to simply using foam ear defenders or similar. On small stages I may pop the other in if I feel like it is overly loud. 

CountryDave

bloodandtears said:

ESBlonde said:

One potential downside to an IEM rig is the need to mic up a traditional drum kit irrespective of the loudness of the gig, just to feed the ears mix. Not a problem for a full on electric kit though. 

Mostly these days I’m playing in 3 or 4 piece bands in social clubs and the odd pub. I use a 15w valve combo and nothing but the kick  drum and acoustic guitar are reinforced by the PA (obviously the 3 part vocals do too). My ears don’t ring after a gig and I can hear everything clearly. On Saturday we rocked up to a club and set up, the sound check was a verse and chorus of one song, everything was crystal clear on stage and FOH (unmanned) sounded good off the bat. A digital desk helps with the recall of settings of course. 

I have an IEM setup, but prefer not to use it if possible. Use what works for you and the event you are entertaining at.

I only use one ear (my left ear which faces the cymbals/drummer side)... my feed is mono anyway.. 

Smart move using any hearing protection, but especially with the partially trained ape & his china cymbals.  .

topdog91

Rehearsed last night for the first time without connecting the Helix to the crappy amp in the room and instead going through the crappy PA. Also used IEMs for the first time, I snagged a monitor feed from a wedge nobody uses (it's a tiny room).

I really took to it actually, it didn't take long to get used to at all. Drums weren't miked and bass amp wasn't DId but could still hear them enough. Asked other bandmates to speak into mics here and there so I know the passive isolation wasn't bad.

Pleasantly surprised by how much better I could hear myself; at first it was like shit this is a bit revealing but I think I rose to the challenge and it helped me sharpen my playing like in the studio.

As we were packing up, I said that went well lads. Keyboard player who was next to the mixer said I don't know, I couldn't hear you that well. I said well why tell me at the end of rehearsal and why not tweak the fader like I asked for at the start? He said he didn't want to keep tweaking it which doesn't make sense to me (unless my sounds are out of whack).

He said bands that use IEMs have to have a sound engineer. I said during gigs you do the sound from the stage and if you need a bit more or less of me you tweak the fader on the mic on my amp (more recently the DI feed from the Helix with the 1/4" going to my amp), so what's the difference?

He also said when you have an amp and you're not sure if you can hear yourself, you fight harder and put more in. I just said we're not Motorhead. Nobody else would like to not hear themselves well because their amp is at their feet, why should I?

He said (and this is fairer) he couldn't work out if it was because there was no guitar amp in the room or if I was using IEMs. The funny thing is the amp in the room is complete turd, a cheap sounding Hiwatt solid state combo.

Then bass player said "yeah, you were on the quiet end of okay", I said why didn't you say anything either, he said "quiet end of okay is okay". I mean really, why don't people say stuff? Plenty of time for banter and other talk but not this. If I thought his sound could be better, I'd say something.

I accept that my patches might need some tweaking as I'm new to this although I think it's nearly there, but just disappointed with the way the communication transpired. Will definitely give it another go or few because I see (hear) the potential. Singer complains he can't hear himself due to (musk) earplugs and probably hearing issues, but refused to give the IEMs a go. I think this is a cultural thing, we get on very well as a band so there's no snark.

Also maybe to simplify matters and stop spooking people I should start with IEMs only or going direct to PA only rather than changing two things at once.

Musicwolf

topdog91 said:

He said bands that use IEMs have to have a sound engineer.

Clearly bollocks.

However you monitor, and whether you are via an amp or direct to PA, the mix will depend upon where you are stood and what you are listening through.  Only someone stood out front (i.e. an Engineer) is going to hear what the audience hears and even then they are only going to hear what's going on in a particular spot at one time.

Mixing from the stage is always going to be a compromise (even guess work).  You are typically relying on things such as a band member going out front during sound check (if you get one) with a wireless transmitter or having a trusted listener to tell you what they're hearing.

The sound on stage is going to be very reliant on where gear is placed, acoustics of the stage etc and as such is probably far more variable gig to gig.  In an ideal world each member would have their own monitor / mix and it would be up to them to set it for how they want to hear things.

In your situation, in the practice room, you need to set your IEM mix and it's then up to the others to fight it out as to how they set the balance in the room.

Danny1969

In my opinion all bands should have an engineer out front, and in 3 out of 4 bands I play in there is. I use IEM's in those bands because someone else is mixing the FOH sound with an iPad, or direct from the desk via a CAT 5 cable running out front. I have a great mix in my ears using a A&H ME-1 or a Dr Watson U-mix. I'm not concerned at all with the FOH sound.

With the other band I'm in I mix the sound from the stage, and I don't use IEM's, because I need to hear a bit of what's going on out front. If the whole band is on IEM's then you won't even know if the PA is on out the front. For example on Saturday I was mixing the G25 awards  at the Hilton in Park Lane. These award shows are well paid but a bit of a pain in as much as you have to load in, wait for the celebrity speaker to finish rehearsing their lines, then get the gear on stage for a quick sound check using the Audio Visual companies PA. These rooms are huge so the PA is normally 4 to 8 bins behind the stage and 24 speakers arranged around the room with another 4 or 8 pointing down from the lighting rig to the dance floor. I normally get a Left a Right feed from them which I can plumb in the bands little Midas. 

We soundcheck and all is good, then we have to get all the gear off the stage again so it's free for the celebrity host and the award winners to come up etc. Then at 11:30 the awards are over and it's time to get the band and gear onstage. I speak to the AV guys and they want to crossfade the music they are playing with the band starting, so it's seamless to the audience. Unfortunately I got distracted in the frantic setup and didn't plumb in the left and right feed to the PA. I can see on the iPad I have all the channels working and all their IEM's are fine. But there's nothing FOH. For 12 seconds or so the band played completely oblivious to the fact there was no FOH because they are all on IEM's.

That's obviously an extreme example but IEM's are a different world to what's audible in the room to the crowd. But, there's no reason you can't enjoy an IEM mix if at least one band member has an ear to what's going on out front. Not the drummer but someone near the front.

Gulliver

Snags said:

What is the motivation for a pub band to go down the IEM/click track route?

For me - I started using IEMs with a Behringer P1, some cheap in-ears and a cable.  Took it to a jam night I was running - and was convinced before the end of the first song that it was the right thing for me.

It firstly sounded like the level of everything was brought down (like using ear plugs) which meant I could go to bed straight away when I got home, instead of pottering around for an hour while the ringing calmed down.  I also could hear my voice properly when singing, it took me a while to dial it in and get used to actually being able to hear my voice (at the time, I'd spent 15 years playing and singing in pub bands without any monitors at all) but it is honestly a game changer.

Then I started using the UA amp sim pedals through the PA instead of carting an amp to gigs. I found my guitar playing got better because I could accurately hear what I was doing - and changed a few sounds to make them a bit wetter because I wasn't getting room noise.  

Next, I figured out how I could hear the FOH balance in my in-ears, so that I could do a sound-check on stage.  This meant I could balance my vocals and guitar, and BV's from the PA - and let drums and bass just be in-the-room.  Bass player at the start of the first song would go out front and listen to the guitar/bass/drum mix and adjust the master accordingly, and we'd get perfect sound effortlessly.

These days - I use some slightly better monitors and a Nux B7 Pro for wireless-ness.  The wireless-ness of the IEMs is probably a little gimmicky at the moment, but I have plans to use them more in solo acoustic shows, where I might end up making the guitar wireless, or with another pub band where I'm wireless to the pedalboard (I try to be a bit energetic with that band, because none of the rest of them will - last gig I played a solo while doing a complete lap of the outside of the pub)

I'm also working on a solo-with-backing-tracks version of one band's set - so I can go and do a one-man rock act - which I don't really want to, but a number of places I play solo acoustic would prefer a more energetic vibe.   That's going to need to be IEMs for click track and cues for backing tracks (I'm recording/programming all the drums and recording bass for all the songs, so It's not just karaoke - cues are necessary because currently I will drag out solos if i'm in the zone and the band will follow, Tracks can't do that)

Final thing is that I still keep my Behringer P1 with my IEM rig, it's a great back up, or if I CBA with dealing with wireless issues and latency.

Shipwreck

Properly daft question... where do you begin with IEMs doing small local shows? Understand it's earphones into a pack and a transmitter but how does your IEM pack "speak" to the FOH mix? Looking at shows with backline, wedge monitors etc but this is a different world for me - always thought it was reserved for the big league acts 

Musicwolf

Shipwreck said:

Properly daft question... where do you begin with IEMs doing small local shows? Understand it's earphones into a pack and a transmitter but how does your IEM pack "speak" to the FOH mix? Looking at shows with backline, wedge monitors etc but this is a different world for me - always thought it was reserved for the big league acts 

The same way as you get a feed to your wedge monitor.

The desk needs to have an avaialble aux bus (2 aux busses if you want stereo), and this is where digital desks are ideal.

Everything that you need to hear in your IEMs, kit, bass, guitar vocals etc, needs to going into the desk - whether or not it is going into front of house.

Just this week I took my Behringer XR-18 desk to rehearsals so that I could make a multitrack recording of the band.  I set up as I would do live.  DIs from the bass amp and from my Helix, 3x vocal mics and a single OH mic for the kit.  Only the vocals and my Helix went to the FoH speakers.  I also had a pre-recorded count-in for each track to ensure that we got the tempo correct.

I monitored via IEMs.  In actual fact I could have got away without the kit or the bass in my ears as there was sufficient bleed from the room.  

stickyfiddle

Shipwreck said:

Properly daft question... where do you begin with IEMs doing small local shows? Understand it's earphones into a pack and a transmitter but how does your IEM pack "speak" to the FOH mix? Looking at shows with backline, wedge monitors etc but this is a different world for me - always thought it was reserved for the big league acts 

As I understand it, either:

1 - you run it as a monitor feed from FOH with your transmitters/cables to IEMs receiving whatever is sent from the desk (poss cheaper upfront but means you're still beholden to whoever is on the desk and can vary night to night

2 - you run it as a passthrough splitter, where everything is plugged into your splitter first, and then onto FOH. That way you keep control of everything (we have an iPhone app) which means you get basically the same mix every time, and don't need to burden the FOH guy with requests for "more me". It's also lower-risk if you want any talkback mics on stage to allow someone in the band to talk to you all but not have it go through the PA. If you're sending that to FOH there's always a risk the crowd will hear "ok let's do another chorus in 2,3,4..."