Modeller users live…which sounds best

monkey42

so, seriously thinking of getting a back up modeller for smaller gigs which would go through Pa and either a wedge or IEM.

Simple question; of the all the modellers…which sounds best

fractal
quad
tonex
kemper

anything missed

digitalscream

Well, the obvious one you've missed is the Helix (and Helix Stadium).

However...having tried a lot of them up to a couple of years ago, the answer is less helpful than you'd hope: "Whichever one you find easiest to work with".

They're all pretty similar in terms of the potential quality of sounds, the problem is usually more to do with features and how good the user is at setting them up (and how well it fits into their existing rig).

I was a Helix guy, now I use a ToneX ONE. I would happily gig with either, but I don't like the Fractal interface, the Kemper always seemed too limiting and I couldn't find anything that the Quad Cortex does that I need over the ToneX.

monkey42

digitalscream said:

Well, the obvious one you've missed is the Helix (and Helix Stadium).

However...having tried a lot of them up to a couple of years ago, the answer is less helpful than you'd hope: "Whichever one you find easiest to work with".

They're all pretty similar in terms of the potential quality of sounds, the problem is usually more to do with features and how good the user is at setting them up (and how well it fits into their existing rig).

I was a Helix guy, now I use a ToneX ONE. I would happily gig with either, but I don't like the Fractal interface, the Kemper always seemed too limiting and I couldn't find anything that the Quad Cortex does that I need over the ToneX.

Yes, sorry Helix should have been included. And i suppose this brings me to, if a ToneX does same sounds then why spend too much. I really only want a nice clean and a full on gain for lead sound

flying_pie

Everything sounds good these days

I'd go with whatever practical features and workflow suits you best 

If you just want two amp channels to add to your pedalboard as a backup then the Tonex One is superb value for money, but if you want an all in one then you'd be looking at Fractal/Helix/QC

monkey42

flying_pie said:

Everything sounds good these days

I'd go with whatever practical features and workflow suits you best 

If you just want two amp channels to add to your pedalboard as a backup then the Tonex One is superb value for money, but if you want an all in one then you'd be looking at Fractal/Helix/QC

This is starting to answer my question straight away. If the tonex sound wise is as good…given what i need, then that be what’s needed. Is tonex easy to set up for two sounds as it just has the one foot switch

willo

As an all in one I went from 5 years of Helix to Fractal last year and could not be happier. I still have a HX Stomp as a backup.

If you're looking for a backup then most brands have their smaller equivalent that you can plug a pedalboard into - there's the new Fractal AM4, HX Stomp, Nano Cortex. But I'd be hard pressed to ignore the size and price of the TonexOne mentioned above, or maybe the Boss IR2.

Only thing Id say with the smaller units is the IO can sometimes be limiting - fewer outputs, effects chain placement etc. 

Finally I'd budget £30 for some IRs on any of the modellers. The IR has a huge impact on the sound and can get my HX Stomp sounding closer to my Fractal. Although the stock stuff is great, I find things like York Audio get you to a better place quicker.

digitalscream

monkey42 said:

flying_pie said:

Everything sounds good these days

I'd go with whatever practical features and workflow suits you best 

If you just want two amp channels to add to your pedalboard as a backup then the Tonex One is superb value for money, but if you want an all in one then you'd be looking at Fractal/Helix/QC

This is starting to answer my question straight away. If the tonex sound wise is as good…given what i need, then that be what’s needed. Is tonex easy to set up for two sounds as it just has the one foot switch

Yes - it's pretty easy. However, the software sucks balls; it's improved a fair bit, but (for me, at least) it's not as intuitive as it could be.

One important part that I discovered is that if you want the profiles to behave more like the original amps, then you need to adjust the centre frequencies of the tone controls to be as close to the amp as possible. Once I did that with the ADA MP-1 profiles, they went from being "right as long as you don't change the tone controls" to "pretty much bang-on".

That's the other thing, actually - the major difference between the modellers and the profilers is that profilers get you access to really rare bits of kit, pretty much everything's been profiled at this point. With modellers, you're stuck with whatever the manufacturer can be persuaded to add to the firmware.

Musicwolf

I've gigged exclusively with modellers for more than a decade.  Vox ToneLab, POD HD500, Helix, Kemper and now Helix Stadium.  They are all capable of producing good results and the audience won't know or care that you're not using an amp.  It's all about how you interface with the modeller and finding something that works for you.

For me, what works best live is to start with something closely resembling a traditional rig i.e. I don't use dozens of different amp models, I use two (an AC30 and a Fender).  In one of my bands, I use just one amp model for the whole gig.   Same goes for distortions, delays, reverbs etc. 

I do emply a patch-per-song methodology, but many of my patches are duplicates.  What I do is think hard about how I'm using the patch for a particular song.  If I'm only using one 'scene' or 'snapshot' in a song then all the footswitches on my Helix are off (except the bank up and down and tuner).  If I'm using two snapshots then just those two footswitches are illuminated / active.  Better still, I switch between sounds by using the expression pedal.  In short, minimum tap-dancing.

You can have something that really reflects your tradditional rig by having footswitches turn individual effects on and off (Line 6 call this stomp mode).

Whatever you go for, you'll need to put some effort into learn how it works.  As for recommendations, if you're new to modellers I'd avoid the Helix Stadium for a while.  It sounds great but there are still a few bugs in the system which are manageable for an experienced Helix user but would likely send someone less experienced up the wall.

drwiddly

The previous posters are right in that everything sounds good these days and choice comes down to preference and what suits your workflow. 

I gigged for years alternating between an Axe fx (Ultra and later a II) and a Kemper rack. Once you have them dialled in, they sound great and it’s hard to tell the difference between them in a band mix. I have a Tonex and it’s capable of sounding amazing. The software is a bit confusing but has improved from when it launched and the editor has made setting up sounds a lot easier. The effects are ok but pretty basic so, if you’re looking for shimmer reverbs and fancy modulations, you might want to try something more upmarket. If, as you say, you only need two sounds, then a Tonex one would do the job. You can set it up to switch between two presets very easily. If you need more, you could add an Airstep footswitch to expand its capabilities.
another option to consider would be the Valeton pedals (GP5 & GP50) which seem to do a lot for little money but I’ve not tried them so can’t speak from experience.

chrisj1602

ToneX One is great for A/B switching between two sounds. I didn’t like the software but I was very happy with the sound.

flying_pie

willo said:

Finally I'd budget £30 for some IRs on any of the modellers. The IR has a huge impact on the sound and can get my HX Stomp sounding closer to my Fractal. Although the stock stuff is great, I find things like York Audio get you to a better place quicker.

I would agree but also ask have you tried the free Origin Effects ones? They are really mid focused and great for live tones. I still use all my York Audio ones for recording but the Origin ones work superbly for a more amp like vibe with less of the scooped feel the YA/Ownhammer ones have.

@monkey42 the Tonex One is easy enough to setup using the editor software into the pedal once you get your head around it, after using the pedal too set the input trim. You used to have to make patches in the software then import them into the unit but you don't have to do that now, so you can just hook up the unit by USB into your computer and then run it into a PA speaker at full blast if you want making real time edits that are automatically saved to the pedal. There is one annoyance where you have have to use the separate "Tonex" program to import presets from paid DI/IR captures but you can use the editor once you've done that. 

@digitalscream out of interest where do you have your EQ knobs on the Tonex or does it vary between capturs? Fwiw I tend to go with 600hz for bass and 1000Hz for treble, using depth if I want to boost/cut the very bottom end. I use the mids with a narrow Q around 400Hz as a small cut if needed to clear up mud like an EQ in a DAW. That's more of a studio approach than real amp knobs but it works pretty well for me

exocet

I was a gig at the Roundhouse a few days ago. I was there to see the final performance by Mew (Danish Art Rock band who've been going 30 years). I'd never heard of them but a mate ofine invited me. Anyway, support were a trio from Newcastle, can't remember the name but they were pretty good. Guitarist was playing through a 4 x 10 HRD, nice crunchy tone so Im assuming pedals. It reaffirmed my growing prejudice that you don't need to spend loads to sound good. Next up. Mew. What a guitar sound, no amp in sight so I assumed modeller at play. Looked up post gig, Helix user. 

Roland

monkey42 said:  Simple question: of the all the modellers…which sounds best

It’s not a simple as your question implies. Nowadays there’s not a lot of difference between modellers for amp sound, once you’ve got it dialled in. Obviously, if you want to use several types of amp then you’ve got to get them all dialled in. Most of us would only take one amp to a gig, so that’s generally not a problem. Certainly cheaper than buying and selling amps until you find one which works for you.

Where the difference in sound become important is in the FX. Most people agree that this is where the Fractal scores. If you don’t make great use of FX then it’s a non-issue. 

Another important difference is in workflow when you are playing. I got into multiFX thirty years ago so that, when I changed from rhythm to solo, I didn’t have to tap dance across several pedals. Nowadays I have the buttons labelled Intro, Verse, Chorus, Solo, Outro so that I don’t have to think about what changes. I also run one patch per song, not because they’re very different, but because I don’t have to think about what changes. Sometimes the only difference between patches is BPM. When I changed patch it defaults to a quiescent scene with delay at the song’s BPM. I hit a string to get a click, hit the Intro scene, and start the next song.

monkey42

I am a simple soul . I literally need to replicate my soldano slo clean sound with some ambience and then the lead setting again with ambience. Literally nothing else. What i don’t understand with tonex1 (and forgive my stupidity) is it has one foot switche so if set clean and then a press the switch to go to lead….how do i get back to clean

flying_pie

monkey42 said:

I am a simple soul . I literally need to replicate my soldano slo clean sound with some ambience and then the lead setting again with ambience. Literally nothing else. What i don’t understand with tonex1 (and forgive my stupidity) is it has one foot switche so if set clean and then a press the switch to go to lead….how do i get back to clean

Press the foot switch again 

digitalscream

monkey42 said:

I am a simple soul . I literally need to replicate my soldano slo clean sound with some ambience and then the lead setting again with ambience. Literally nothing else. What i don’t understand with tonex1 (and forgive my stupidity) is it has one foot switche so if set clean and then a press the switch to go to lead….how do i get back to clean

It's an A/B switch.

monkey42

Told you i was stoopid when it comes to these things, but all makes sense. Thanks all

flying_pie

You can also assign different colours to your presets. You shouldn't really need it with just 2 presets but it helps keep track, especially if you use a polar midi/Airstep to have access to more presets

You could for example have green for clean and red for shed

EricTheWeary

digitalscream said:

monkey42 said:

I am a simple soul . I literally need to replicate my soldano slo clean sound with some ambience and then the lead setting again with ambience. Literally nothing else. What i don’t understand with tonex1 (and forgive my stupidity) is it has one foot switche so if set clean and then a press the switch to go to lead….how do i get back to clean

It's an A/B switch.

Just flicking through a Tonex One review and as I understand it you can have it in stomp mode (on-off) or A-B. In A-B the illuminated mini knobs change colour so you have a visual reference for wether you are on A or B.
The review described setting up the Tonex One as convoluted (so in line with everything said on here and the 'once you've updated the software' line as well) but I guess for your purposes after a couple of hours of hair pulling you will have something that does exactly the job you want at a fraction of the price of some of the alternatives. 

willo

flying_pie said:

willo said:

Finally I'd budget £30 for some IRs on any of the modellers. The IR has a huge impact on the sound and can get my HX Stomp sounding closer to my Fractal. Although the stock stuff is great, I find things like York Audio get you to a better place quicker.

I would agree but also ask have you tried the free Origin Effects ones? They are really mid focused and great for live tones. I still use all my York Audio ones for recording but the Origin ones work superbly for a more amp like vibe with less of the scooped feel the YA/Ownhammer ones have.

Great recommendation! I do have them. I didn't take to them as much as I'd hoped but we're on a bit of a gigging hiatus at the moment so I've been playing at home and yep, the York Audio stuff works great for that. I picked up their Twin, Marshall 4x12 and Vox packs. The Twin in particular sounds great - played it on my HX Stomp at an open mic last week and just a great, great tone.

Littlejonny

I have a Tonex One on the end of my pedal board. The Tonex is set to a clean Deluxe Reverb profile with a touch of reverb. I use the A/B to add in either more reverb, or chorus depending on the gig. Saves having an reverb pedal or a chorus pedal. All dirt comes from pedals in front of Tonex. 

I also have Joyo American Sound but I find the Tonex much nicer sounding. 

You could of course use the Tonex for dirty sounds as well, but I find that I prefer the sound of pedals through the clean amp profile because it ties the sounds together, sonically.