E Flat or D Sharp

rickd2112a

I have a quick question on using sharp or flat to describe a note.

We always talk about tuning to Eb not D#. I know they are the same pitch but I think classically the two notes are different and depend on the context or scale that you're talking about.

Does it matter when I'm only do this for me?

I'm kind of settled on Bb and Eb and the other notes as sharp. But watching a couple Jack Ruch videos he talks about Ab Major being in the scale of Eb. Which is what prompted this question.

thecolourbox

There's no real proper basis for what i think here, but i tend to think of "tuning to E flat" because I'd typically be tuning down from E. So psychologically it seems right to be E Flat 

A bit like how I might pop down to a town in the south, but would pop up to a town in the north

Open_G

thecolourbox said:

There's no real proper basis for what i think here, but i tend to think of "tuning to E flat" because I'd typically be tuning down from E. So psychologically it seems right to be E Flat 

A bit like how I might pop down to a town in the south, but would pop up to a town in the north

Apologies for the immediate derailment but I think (probably not scientifically) that referring to going up or down to a place is probably railway related. You always (on the rails) go up to the major town and down to the minor. 

octatonic

rickd2112a said:

I have a quick question on using sharp or flat to describe a note.

We always talk about tuning to Eb not D#. I know they are the same pitch but I think classically the two notes are different and depend on the context or scale that you're talking about.

Does it matter when I'm only do this for me?

I'm kind of settled on Bb and Eb and the other notes as sharp. But watching a couple Jack Ruch videos he talks about Ab Major being in the scale of Eb. Which is what prompted this question.

Always relate it back to keys/major scale & the circle of 5ths.

Eb major: E♭, F, G, A♭, B♭, C, and D - has 3 flats.
D# major: D#, E#, F##, G#, A#, B#, and C## - is all sharps with two double sharps.

I know which one I would rather try to sight read- only a sadist and an asshole would give other musicians songs in D# major.

Yes, Ab is the 4th scale degree of Eb major.

But you can use whatever term you want.

What doesn't tend to happen is the mixing of sharps and flats when relating to musical key.
There are no standard diatonic musical keys that have a sharp and a flat within them. 
So you wouldn't tend to have  E♭, F, G, G#, B♭, C, and D, for example.
It is confusing to do so and it isn't the convention.
The other rule this sort of breaks is having two G's and no A. so E♭, F, G, Ab, B♭, C, and D would be considered 'correct'.

When we read music you denote the key signature so that you don't have to write down every sharp or flat on the stave.

But you do have accidentals- ie within a piece of music you might have a sharp note in a song that is in a flat key and vice versa.
(There are also some synthetic scales that have a mixture.)

If you know your circle of 5ths you will know that the first few flat keys: F Bb, Eb, Ab have relatively few flats in them and that the first few sharp keys (G, D, A, E) have relatively few sharps (as you go around the circle of 5th's/4ths you add one more sharp or flat each time).

For this reason it is much easier to read or even think about the musical key of Bb than it is A#.

Danny1969

I've never quite understood the fundamental reason why the sharp / flat thing came about but if a scale contains a natural note then you wouldn't use a sharp or flat of the same note. 

So in the key of D we would use C# as the 7 not a Db 

In the key of Gm we have G - A - and the Bb not A# because we have the natural A 

For tuning down a semitone on the guitar we just call it down a semi in the bands I play in rather than tune down to Eb / D# as that would mean nothing to a keys or brass player 

LionAquaLooper

If its just for you then who cares? When i write chord charts for my gigs I mix flats and sharps in the same songs if I have to. Like I'll never call Eb a D#. And I'll never call a C#m chord a "Dbm". I'm just not used to it and in a gig I can't afford to be thinking about this stuff as I'm playing  

octatonic

Danny1969 said:

I've never quite understood the fundamental reason why the sharp / flat thing came about but if a scale contains a natural note then you wouldn't use a sharp or flat of the same note. 

So in the key of D we would use C# as the 7 not a Db 

In the key of Gm we have G - A - and the Bb not A# because we have the natural A 

For tuning down a semitone on the guitar we just call it down a semi in the bands I play in rather than tune down to Eb / D# as that would mean nothing to a keys or brass player 

As I said, it is to make reading music on a stave easier.

You denote the musical key on the stave.
If you see this:

then you know you are in Eb major.

So when notes are written on the stave on the lines for E, A & B you know to play those notes as flats unless there is an accidental on them.
This has been the convention for hundreds of years.
If you had to put in every sharp or flat it would make reading it very confusing.

octatonic

LionAquaLooper said:

If its just for you then who cares? When i write chord charts for my gigs I mix flats and sharps in the same songs if I have to. Like I'll never call Eb a D#. And I'll never call a C#m chord a "Dbm". I'm just not used to it and in a gig I can't afford to be thinking about this stuff as I'm playing  

What if you are playing something in E Major and you need the vii chord?
Are you actually going to think of that as Eb dim rather than D# dim?

The reason these rules (actually conventions) exist is to make life easier, not harder.

But of course people can do as they please- I'm just pointing out that it makes things more confusing to mix things up in that way.

Sporky

LionAquaLooper said:

If its just for you then who cares? 

If you're never going to play with others or read music then it doesn't matter.

But it's not really very complicated, and working in the standard manner means you won't hit surprises or find that your habit causes you issues later.

viz

Danny1969 said:

I've never quite understood the fundamental reason why the sharp / flat thing came about but if a scale contains a natural note then you wouldn't use a sharp or flat of the same note. 

I do! 

In the olden days they started playing in C major or A Aeolian, with only the natural notes, but then the other modes and hypermodes came into being, starting with lydian and mixolydian. When C major was mixolydianised (not a word), they needed to flatten the B, so they wrote B with a small b; then they started to enjoy the sound of Lydian and tended to play it in F, but when they needed to ionianise that, they again needed to flatten the B. So the "b" sign was specifically designed to signify Bb, and B natural would be written capitalised. Then the b sign was repurposed for all flattenings; and the more pointy way of writing a little b, which was the natural sign, was then used to unflatten the B, but then also repurposed for all naturalisations, and then an even more pointy way of writing a b was created for sharpening a note, because in some keys when you went from, say, mixolydian to ionian, you actually needed to raise one of the natural notes.

digitalkettle

rickd2112a said:

I have a quick question on using sharp or flat to describe a note...

Quick question, you said? You're in the 'Theory' section now, son!

digitalkettle

rickd2112a said:

I have a quick question on using sharp or flat to describe a note.

We always talk about tuning to Eb not D#. I know they are the same pitch but I think classically the two notes are different and depend on the context or scale that you're talking about.
...

Sounds like you're just dropping the guitar's tuning to 'Eb standard'...maybe for tension or timbre or maybe to suit your voice...but you don't have to get tangled up in music theory here. You'd still play a C chord as x32010 even though it's a B (or is it a Cb ).

Sporky

digitalkettle said:

You'd still play a C chord as x32010 even though it's a B (or is it a Cb ).

As has been said, that would depend on the key. Though for it to be Cb, the most normal key you'd be in would, I think, be Gb major.

rickd2112a

Thanks for all the quick replies, especially @octatonic that explained the theory behind it.

rickd2112a

digitalkettle said:

Sounds like you're just dropping the guitar's tuning to 'Eb standard'...maybe for tension or timbre or maybe to suit your voice...but you don't have to get tangled up in music theory here. You'd still play a C chord as x32010 even though it's a B (or is it a Cb ).

I'm not actually tuning down, I just used that as an example. 

I wanted to understand why sometimes chords are Ab rather than G#. This has been at the back of my mind for a few years. But watching a Jack Ruch video he was playing in C Major and then borrowed some elements and chords from Cm. He said you could consider it Cm or Eb Major - I understand this as that's the relative major. No problem there. He also used Ab Major and Bb Major within that scale. Again I understand the theory of those chords, but not why they were Ab not G# and Bb not A#.

Now I think I understand.

I only play at home, for me, so I don't need to adopt correct music notation, but it is useful to know the nest practice or convention.

digitalkettle

Sporky said:

digitalkettle said:

You'd still play a C chord as x32010 even though it's a B (or is it a Cb ).

As has been said, that would depend on the key. Though for it to be Cb, the most normal key you'd be in would, I think, be Gb major.

Indeed...if I had the misfortune to be playing in Gb major, and I was tuned to Eb standard, I'd be thinking 'G'.

I suppose that's 'mechanics' (tunings, capos, voicings) more than theory.

AntonHunter

Open_G said:

thecolourbox said:

There's no real proper basis for what i think here, but i tend to think of "tuning to E flat" because I'd typically be tuning down from E. So psychologically it seems right to be E Flat 

A bit like how I might pop down to a town in the south, but would pop up to a town in the north

Apologies for the immediate derailment but I think (probably not scientifically) that referring to going up or down to a place is probably railway related. You always (on the rails) go up to the major town and down to the minor. 

No chance, I go down to London from Manchester. I'm not changing.

And everyone else is bang on with the theory stuff.

Danny1969

viz said:

Danny1969 said:

I've never quite understood the fundamental reason why the sharp / flat thing came about but if a scale contains a natural note then you wouldn't use a sharp or flat of the same note. 

I do! 

In the olden days they started playing in C or A Aeolian, with all natural notes, but then the other modes and hypermodes came into being, starting with lydian and mixolydian. When C major was mixolydianised (not a word), they needed to flatten the B, so they wrote it with a small b; then they started to enjoy the sound of Lydian and tended to play it in F, but when they needed to ionianise that, they again needed to flatten the b. So the "b" sign was specifically designed for Bb, and B natural would be written capitalised. Then the b sign was repurposed for all flattenings; and the more pointy way of writing a little b, which was the natural sign, was then used to unflatten the B, but then also repurposed for all naturalisations, and then an even more pointy way of writing a b was created for sharpening a note, because in some keys when you went from, say, mixolydian to ionian, you actually needed to raise one of the natural notes.

thanks Viz and @octatonic ; ...every days a school day. 

LionAquaLooper

octatonic said:

LionAquaLooper said:

If its just for you then who cares? When i write chord charts for my gigs I mix flats and sharps in the same songs if I have to. Like I'll never call Eb a D#. And I'll never call a C#m chord a "Dbm". I'm just not used to it and in a gig I can't afford to be thinking about this stuff as I'm playing  

What if you are playing something in E Major and you need the vii chord?
Are you actually going to think of that as Eb dim rather than D# dim?

Yes I do. Im weird like that lol. If a song has C#m and a D#dim I’ll write the progression as C#m … Eb dim. Just how my brain’s been wired ever since I started my guitar journey decades ago. I know the equivalent sharps and flats but naturally my brain just automatically sees some notes as specifically flats and the others specifically sharps. 

viz

rickd2112a said:

digitalkettle said:

Sounds like you're just dropping the guitar's tuning to 'Eb standard'...maybe for tension or timbre or maybe to suit your voice...but you don't have to get tangled up in music theory here. You'd still play a C chord as x32010 even though it's a B (or is it a Cb ).

I'm not actually tuning down, I just used that as an example. 

I wanted to understand why sometimes chords are Ab rather than G#. This has been at the back of my mind for a few years. But watching a Jack Ruch video he was playing in C Major and then borrowed some elements and chords from Cm. He said you could consider it Cm or Eb Major - I understand this as that's the relative major. No problem there. He also used Ab Major and Bb Major within that scale. Again I understand the theory of those chords, but not why they were Ab not G# and Bb not A#.

Now I think I understand.

I only play at home, for me, so I don't need to adopt correct music notation, but it is useful to know the nest practice or convention.

Also, if you look at a circle of 5ths, as you index round, clockwise from 12 o clock, you increase by one sharp every hour. By the time you get to 7 o'clock, you already have 7 sharps, and there are only 7 notes in a key, so if you carry on going clockwise you'd be resorting to double sharps. 

But by then you can see you're in the land of decreasing flat keys anyway, so from 6pm it's much more preferable to switch to flats as you carry on cycling round. 

Half an hour staring at a circle of fifths will be really useful for you and there are loads of youtube vids. 

Edit - oh, like @octatonic said. 

Roland

octatonic said: …The reason these rules (actually conventions) exist is to make life easier, not harder...

This. I’ll use what ever makes the score, or chord chart, easier to read.