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Legal advice / best guess ?!

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Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 24208
edited September 2013 in Off Topic
I had a letter from the lovely Plod stating that I'd been caught doing 41 in a 30 zone on 2nd August.  I replied, asking for photographic evidence as I (genuinely) do not know whether it was myself or Mrs Fab who was driving at the time.  We both use the car and she frequently goes out in it as soon as I come home.

I've just had the photo evidence from them, and it is indeed my car, but the photos are of the back of the car and you cannot see any features of the driver at all.  From their evidence, it is impossible to determine whether it's me or Mrs Fab.

However - the accompanying letter says:-

Dear Sir/Madam,

Thankyou for your request for the photographic evidence, in relation to the requirement made of you regarding the identity of the driver of the vehicle in question.  I enclose, as requested, photographic evidence taken at the time of the alleged offence.

I should point out, however, that the Video/DVD or photographic evidence is taken only for the purpose of identifying the vehicle.  It is not taken in order to identify the driver.

I have to inform you that, under Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act, 1988, you are still legally obliged to provide the information requested of you.  This legal obligation applies whether or not you are able to make an identification of the driver from the Video/DVD or photographic evidence.  Failure to comply will render you liable for prosecution.

I would ask therefore that the information requested be supplied within ten days of the date of this letter.


WTF ???

They don't know who was driving.  I don't know who was driving.  Their evidence is apparently taken only to 'identify the vehicle, not the driver', yet they won't be prosecuting a vehicle will they !  ......and, unless I tell them what I genuinely do not know, they are going to prosecute me !!  Seriously - I have no idea who was driving the bloody car at a particular time on a particular day two months ago !  The location is on the road between here and a local retail park, so it's not as if I can even use the location to help me work it out.

I don't mind paying my dues if it was me at the wheel, but I'm not taking the hit if it was Mrs Fab who was to blame, and vice-versa.

  
Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
Also chips are "Plant-based" no matter how you cook them.
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Comments

  • Time to examine your credit card bills or just toss a coin and exempt your self from high office to save the tabloids finding out
    www.maltingsaudio.co.uk
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  • DeadmanDeadman Frets: 3851
    Post this question on http://www.pepipoo.com/

    There are some very knowledgeable people on there.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71950
    edited September 2013
    Presumably if she goes *out* in it just after you come *in*, the direction the car is travelling in the picture could be a clue?

    Does your wife have a history of speeding too? :)

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • MyrandaMyranda Frets: 2940
    The form they send you is asking for you to identify who is driving the vehicle - that's a legal requirement.

    Now previously at least (not checked in a long time) you could attach a letter formatted in a way which should be easily downloadable from the internet... because according the PACE (Police And Criminal Evidence) act you need to be cautioned before giving information that may incriminate you.

    You can still argue the toss about the speed but you have to identify they driver - if you're not aware... then seek legal advise from those who know properly.
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  • Tell them you'll split the fine and the points 50:50 between you. Fair do's.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • In a situation where the driver is genuinely unidentifiable, they will eventually drop the case as they have to be abel to prove beyond reasonable doubt who was driving.  However they don't like it, so it takes a lot to convince the Police/CPS that you genuinely cannot recall who was driving.

    Both you and Mrs Emp, need to write separate statements, both confirming that you were both driving the car on that day, both admitting that you could have been the one driving at that time but that you cannot recall who precisely was driving at the time of the offence.

    You risk it going to court and may have to stick to your statements, but unless one of you admits it and unless they police have any additional evidence that turns up at court may get away with it.



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  • holnrewholnrew Frets: 8207
    Get her to write a letter saying she can't be sure whether it was her in the car or not, then you write one saying you definitely don't think it was you.
    My V key is broken
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  • bertiebertie Frets: 13564
    edited September 2013
    Emp_Fab said:
     Seriously - I have no idea who was driving the bloody car at a particular time on a particular day two months ago !  

      
    I find that quite amazing - seriously.  Perhaps with a memory like that, you actually shouldnt be driving.
    :D




    In a situation where the driver is genuinely unidentifiable, they will eventually drop the case as they have to be abel to prove beyond reasonable doubt who was driving.  

    you 100% positive on that ?  cos I think they'll prosecute the registered owner unless that person can prove otherwise
    just because you don't, doesn't mean you can't
     just because you do, doesn't mean you should.
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  • DeadmanDeadman Frets: 3851
    edited September 2013
    Bertie's right. Balls to all the rigmarole. Visit the site I've alerted you to, get some proper advice and decide from there. No disrespect to anyone on here but I wouldn't act until you get some really pukka gen. You may get offered a speed awareness course anyway.
    One last thing. Where's your galantry!? I'd take a bullet for my missus!
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  • I'm sure I heard that the fine for a registered owner not knowing who was driving their car is 3 points, to stop people just bumping them onto others?
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  • Your car. You are responsible for the ticket. If you can pass it on to someone else who admits to it that's up to you. You can demand to have it heard in court. Certainly when I worked in a magistrates court ( albeit about ten years ago now)we would get headteachers, doctors, etc, coming in to court to have their say, all convinced they had found a loophole in some driving matter. They hadn't.
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 24208
    bertie said:
    Emp_Fab said:
     Seriously - I have no idea who was driving the bloody car at a particular time on a particular day two months ago !  

      
    I find that quite amazing - seriously.  Perhaps with a memory like that, you actually shouldnt be driving.
    :D


    Are you serious ?!!!

    If you are genuinely able to remember which of you was driving your car on a particular day at a particular time, two months ago, when both of you use the car regularly, then it goes without saying that you can recall every single journey both you and your wife have made in the car over the past eight weeks.

    If you can truly do that, then you're in the wrong business mate.... you need to be on the stage.
    Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    Also chips are "Plant-based" no matter how you cook them.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71950
    Given that you should know the exact time the picture was taken and which direction the car was travelling in, can't you work it out?

    Also I think it's what Eric said - as the registered keeper, it's you unless you can prove that it wasn't.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 24208
    edited September 2013
    I'm not the registered keeper.  It's a company car.

    I also can't say from the time or direction.  I checked my calendar and I was working locally that day but finished about an hour before the pic was taken.  If Mrs Fab had gone to the shops, it could easily be her.  It's probably me, but I didn't think the law demands that I submit the name of the person I think was 'probably' driving.
    Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    Also chips are "Plant-based" no matter how you cook them.
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  • jd0272jd0272 Frets: 3867
    Deadman said:
    Bertie's right. Balls to all the rigmarole. Visit the site I've alerted you to, get some proper advice and decide from there. No disrespect to anyone on here but I wouldn't act until you get some really pukka gen. You may get offered a speed awareness course anyway.
    One last thing. Where's your galantry!? I'd take a bullet for my missus!
    At this moment in time, I'd fckn put a bullet in mine.
    "You do all the 'widdly widdly' bits, and just leave the hard stuff to me."
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 24208
    Deadman said:
    Post this question on http://www.pepipoo.com/

    There are some very knowledgeable people on there.
    Thanks for that - very helpful indeed.
    Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    Also chips are "Plant-based" no matter how you cook them.
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  • I love how you or your wife got caught doing 11mph over the speed limit, got caught, but somehow the police are the bad guys? The old trick of saying you don't know who it was to get make the points go away clearly doesn't work anymore, as others have said, they just charge them to the keeper. Are you sure you aren't registered as the keeper, with the work address? Even if you aren't, I'm sure your work will have a process for charging them to you?
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  • I have a company car. In these circumstances, my employer simply provides details of who the car is allocated to.

    From that point on, the process is the same as of you own the car; if you believe it wasn't you driving, you have to disclose who was....
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  • bertie said:
    Emp_Fab said:
     Seriously - I have no idea who was driving the bloody car at a particular time on a particular day two months ago !  

      
    I find that quite amazing - seriously.  Perhaps with a memory like that, you actually shouldnt be driving.
    :D


    The answer to who puts their hand up,  who has the least points, or who is least like to be affected by it.......no brainer surely ?

    In a situation where the driver is genuinely unidentifiable, they will eventually drop the case as they have to be abel to prove beyond reasonable doubt who was driving.  

    you 100% positive on that ?  cos I think they'll prosecute the registered owner unless that person can prove otherwise

    I have access to info on this at work, but as im not at work this guidance from Which will have to do in the meantime




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  • bertiebertie Frets: 13564
    edited September 2013
    Emp_Fab said:
    Are you serious ?!!!

    If you are genuinely able to remember which of you was driving your car on a particular day at a particular time, two months ago, when both of you use the car regularly, .
    yes, based on this

    ICBM said:
    Given that you should know the exact time the picture was taken and which direction the car was travelling in, can't you work it out?

    Also I think it's what Eric said - as the registered keeper, it's you unless you can prove that it wasn't.

    I have access to info on this at work, but as im not at work this guidance from Which will have to do in the meantime
    ah right,  I just speak from similar experience,  twice.  

    my car.....is incidentally,  owned by the leasing co. but I am the registered driver/owner what ever......and things like tickets etc IF they go through my co 'department'  also get a handling fee charged to me by my co/leasing co.    - states all that in the co car Ts&Cs when you 'sign up'  to have one.     Its a bennefit car, not a business need car.
    just because you don't, doesn't mean you can't
     just because you do, doesn't mean you should.
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