Legal advice / best guess ?!

Emp_Fab

chrispy108 said:

I love how you or your wife got caught doing 11mph over the speed limit, got caught, but somehow the police are the bad guys? The old trick of saying you don't know who it was to get make the points go away clearly doesn't work anymore, as others have said, they just charge them to the keeper. Are you sure you aren't registered as the keeper, with the work address? Even if you aren't, I'm sure your work will have a process for charging them to you?

1) Where did I say the police were the bad guys ?

2) I'm not trying "the old trick" of anything

3) You patently know bugger all about law.

octatonic

Deadman said:

I'd take a bullet for my missus!

So would we all.

Your mum too.

octatonic

We used to come up against this all the time when we shared a car.

Not here in the UK but in Switzerland where they are extremely strict regarding speeding, even a couple of km's of the limit would do it.

It isn't about being forgetful- we were both busy and driving in the same area on the same days.

I don't remember precisely where I was at 1:45pm 3 weeks ago.

Maybe if I check my diary I might be able to work it out, or maybe not.

Regarding taking the points- I'd just make a best but genuine guess- you can't try to do an end-run around the law to try to get out of paying a fine. They are wise to it, it won't work and you mark yourself as dishonest.

Emp_Fab

I'm not trying to 'do' anything - I'm trying to comply with the law.  Obviously it was either me or Mrs Fab, so the money has to come from the same household budget regardless.

The helpful folks on the forum Deadman linked have pointed out that it is possible, but very unlikely, that I might convince a magistrate's court that I genuinely don't know which of us was driving, and in the almost certain outcome that I don't convince them, I'll end up with a £400+ fine and SIX points. 

Either I comply with the law and tell them the absolute truth - i.e. I don't know, and there's no way I can tell for certain - and most likely be fined a large amount and given additional points (for telling the truth to a court) - OR - I break the law deliberately and lie to them by naming a person as the driver when I don't know.

It's ridiculous that I'm being forced into committing an offence (signing a legal declaration I know to be untrue) in order to avoid being penalised for telling the truth !!

Deadman

chrispy108 said:

I love how you or your wife got caught doing 11mph over the speed limit, got caught, but somehow the police are the bad guys? The old trick of saying you don't know who it was to get make the points go away clearly doesn't work anymore, as others have said, they just charge them to the keeper. Are you sure you aren't registered as the keeper, with the work address? Even if you aren't, I'm sure your work will have a process for charging them to you?

Less than helpful, Chrispy.

Having been in Emp's position you approach your own (as he has here) for general advice, not chest poking.

bertie

Deadman said:

Having been in Emp's position you approach your own (as he has here) for general advice, not chest poking.

but he makes it sound like he's the victim in all this........................    the answer is -  an offence was caused, if you genuinely cant work out who was driving,  then  work out between you which one is going to be less impacted by the fine/points  and PUT YOUR HAND UP with a letter of explanation

QED

octatonic

Emp_Fab said:

I'm not trying to 'do' anything - I'm trying to comply with the law.  Obviously it was either me or Mrs Fab, so the money has to come from the same household budget regardless.

The helpful folks on the forum Deadman linked have pointed out that it is possible, but very unlikely, that I might convince a magistrate's court that I genuinely don't know which of us was driving, and in the almost certain outcome that I don't convince them, I'll end up with a £400+ fine and SIX points. 

Either I comply with the law and tell them the absolute truth - i.e. I don't know, and there's no way I can tell for certain - and most likely be fined a large amount and given additional points (for telling the truth to a court) - OR - I break the law deliberately and lie to them by naming a person as the driver when I don't know.

It's ridiculous that I'm being forced into committing an offence (signing a legal declaration I know to be untrue) in order to avoid being penalised for telling the truth !!

Propose a better system then.

The current system exists to stop people from saying 'I don't recall' as a way of avoiding having to pay a fine.

When we've been in the same situation we made a decision based on who was mostly likely to have committed the offence.

It is highly unlikely that you don't have an idea of who might have been driving, even if you don't 100% know for sure.

To say you have to commit an offence is over-egging it just a bit.

Seems to me that you just love to moan- getting indignant & hot under the collar is a bit of a drug for some people.

Emp_Fab

Oh, I do love a good rant, there's no denying !  However.... I'm also a bit OCD... and I like things to be certain, especially with things like the law.  I've never felt comfortable with the 'balance of probability' thing that Fretmeister has referred to in the past when it comes to court judgements.  To my mind, you should only convict someone if there is incontrovertible proof of their guilt.

It's probably me driving...  I'd say it's maybe 60/40 that way.  However - I genuinely do not know for certain.

I'm in no hurry to do a 'Chris Huhne' and name Mrs Fab as the driver when I'm not sure she was.  Bertie's post implies that he has done exactly that - and you know what happened to Mrs & Mrs Huhne dontcha ?

If I choose to behave completely within the law and be truthful in my answers to the police and courts, then I will end up in court, and my honesty will be decided upon by a magistrate.  The magistrate will almost certainly find me guilty of deliberately withholding information and I'll get fined £400 for telling the truth.  Regardless of how trivially easy it may appear to avoid this, by being 'creative' with my response to the police, you can't deny that if I am to follow the law to the letter then the above scenario is unavoidable.

If I were to protest further and appeal, and again get a sceptical judge and/or jury, I could end up with massive fines and prison time - all for refusing to 'confess' what they have assumed to be the truth.  As, indeed, several forumites have made assumptions about my personal guilt in this thread.

ChrisMusic

Emp_Fab said:                    ...(edited down from above comment)

Either I comply with the law and tell them the absolute truth - i.e. I don't know, and there's no way I can tell for certain - and most likely be fined a large amount and given additional points (for telling the truth to a court) - OR - I break the law deliberately and lie to them by naming a person as the driver when I don't know.

It's ridiculous that I'm being forced into committing an offence (signing a legal declaration I know to be untrue) in order to avoid being penalised for telling the truth !!

Since when was the law concerned with truth?  There are too many interests at play. 

"the law is an ass", said by judges, solicitors, the police and most of the rest of us, common knowledge, who is going to change it though?

Another truism "there is no justice in the justice system"

Not very helpful I know, but I am with you Emp_Fab on what you said here.

In this case "guilty until proven innocent", oh and by the way anyone trying to escape the POW camp will be shot on sight, we ask questions later, so don't even think of trying.  Self serving revenue stream "justice" delivered at the lowest cost.

And yes I know there are counter arguments to all the points I have raised, sometimes valid, sometimes not though and that's not justice, that's the law.

The authorities have pretty much tied things up, and are draconian with the discouragement penalties, by default miscarrying justice in a lot of cases.  The law in many instances is not there to protect us, just to keep us in our place doing as the authorities require.

Rant over - off to lie down in a darkened room now...

ICBM

I agree with you about the point that if you insist on telling the absolute truth as you see it then you will not be believed, and that's unjust. I'm still amazed that you can't work out who's driving from the time and direction, but perhaps you use your car more often for multiple short journeys than I do...

If you accept the points does that then take you to 12 and you lose your licence?

Does your wife have as many points as you do?

If the answer if no to both questions, take the points - that way if it's ever possible to prove that it was her driving, you cannot be accused of deliberately lying in order to benefit yourself and hence you're more likely to be believed that it was an honest mistake.

If accepting them would take you to 12, you will look very much like Chris Huhne if your wife does, so be very careful.

Emp_Fab

My job as a field engineer entails me going all over the place - I'm frequently called out and then return home at random times.  My office tries to organise the calls in areas so we don't have guys passing each other on the motorway etc.  On the day in question I was working locally and had one job in the morning (9am) that I finished in about an hour (according to my paperwork, but I'm never that exacting with times !).  The alleged offence took place at 10:47am.  It's perfectly possible that it could have been me returning home, or my wife coming back from nipping up to Tesco or somesuch after I'd got in.  On balance, it probably was me returning home, but it does seem a bit late, seeing as the site is no more than ten minutes away.  You can't read anything into the times really as I'm pretty lax with my paperwork and usually round things up or down to the nearest hour or so - and can either leave site immediately or end up chatting for a while if the office have no other calls for me.

Plus....  neither Mrs Fab or I have particularly good memories....  you should see us when one of us has lost something - neither can remember who used it last etc.  Shit... I can't even remember where I was YESTERDAY most of the time !

As for the points - we're both currently on 3 a piece.  I'm a bit puzzled by your advice to take the points if I already have more than my wife and how that could constitute 'deliberately lying in order to benefit myself' ! :-)

Drew_TNBD

I'm so sick of reading these bullshit threads about your crap driving habits.

Emp_Fab

I'm sick of you taking the trouble to read a thread and then bitching about how sick you are of reading 'these' threads.  Here's a suggestion.... if you don't like reading threads about my driving, how about this....  next time you see a thread that's about my driving - don't read it !  That way you don't get all sick.

It's worth a go !

p.s. Why haven't you done something worthy of a ban yet ?  I'm disappointed in you Drew.  I was expecting you to be on at least your second username by now.

fretmeister

Balance of probabilities is for civil cases, not criminal ones.

Glad to know your memory really is that crap.

Emp_Fab

Ah.

Why are you glad ?  I seem to have missed the point here.

So this is a criminal case right ? ....which means they have to prove I was driving ?  Not that I'm going to challenge it - I don't have the time, money or balls to risk playing that game with people who can punish me severely if I lose !  I'm just curious.

As for my memory - I'm blaming decades of cannabis abuse.  I no longer smoke anything at all, but I'm convinced it's affected my short-term memory.  I'm fairly sure it is also responsible for the horrible, horrible panic attacks I've had over the past couple of years.

ICBM

Emp_Fab said:

As for the points - we're both currently on 3 a piece.  I'm a bit puzzled by your advice to take the points if I already have more than my wife and how that could constitute 'deliberately lying in order to benefit myself' ! :-)

No, read it again - if you take the points when you already have more, you have a good defence against being accused of lying to benefit yourself if you are later proved to have 'remembered incorrectly'.

But if you both have three, it doesn't make the blindest bit of difference either way does it?!! Unless either of you plan on doing a lot more speeding.

So just take the points.

Emp_Fab

ICBM said:

No, read it again - if you take the points when you already have more, you have a good defence against being accused of lying to benefit yourself if you are later proved to have 'remembered incorrectly'.

Eh ?  If I take the points how can I be then accused of lying to benefit myself ?  What benefit is there to me taking the points ?

CabbageCat

Check your texts/emails/forum posts on the day in question. It might help you recall what you were doing when you read/sent them and why you/her would be in a car.

 

octatonic

Drew_fx said:

I'm so sick of reading these bullshit threads about your crap driving habits.

Emp_Fab said:

I'm sick of you taking the trouble to read a thread and then bitching about how sick you are of reading 'these' threads.  Here's a suggestion.... if you don't like reading threads about my driving, how about this....  next time you see a thread that's about my driving - don't read it !  That way you don't get all sick.

It's worth a go !

p.s. Why haven't you done something worthy of a ban yet ?  I'm disappointed in you Drew.  I was expecting you to be on at least your second username by now.

So much sexual tension.

Can you two just fuck already?

JookyChap

It's all about a lack of proper planning. If you go too fast and get caught, you should always dump and torch the car, then report it as stolen. It being a company car only makes it easier as they will just give you a new one. Or you could drive slower and save yourself some paperwork.