The Rugby Union Thread

scrumhalf

It's possible that straight feeds at scrums has already passed into history, but there's stuff going on at lineouts that beggars belief. Is there some underlying "keep the game flowing" directive to referees which has been kept secret?

lloyd

scrumhalf said:

It's possible that straight feeds at scrums has already passed into history, but there's stuff going on at lineouts that beggars belief. Is there some underlying "keep the game flowing" directive to referees which has been kept secret?

This annoys me though, the laws haven't been changed with the feed. If they don't want straight feeds then why not change the laws? It makes a mockery of all of them IMO, if it's in the law book it should be enforced, if World Rugby don't respect the laws why should anyone else?

Another thing is that sometimes, seemingly randomly a ref will blow up a not straight feed. I'm pretty sure there was one in the WC but I can't remember (google not helping) if a ref does it to a smaller nation it then opens up questions of bias.

Could you imagine football ignoring a law that is pretty material to the outcome of an important part of the game? Like offsides at free kicks? At least football address these things and attempt to sort them (although slowly at times). 

lloyd

http://www.rbs6nations.com/mobile/en/21509.php#U2o4z3z45bRVxkmx.97

Ok these things are generally terrible but.....

No Itoje, Roberts, Hask, Kruis or Stander on the list, which I think is a mistake, Gareth Davies is on there, while he is a fantastic runner with ball in hand his overall 9 play is (and has been this tournament) shocking.

No real standout player for me this year

Hogg has been good to watch in parts

North has his mojo back 

Guirardo has been excellent in a terrible team

Parisse nothing more to say about this guy.

I'd probably give it Billy V,  unstoppable v Ireland and made great gains v Wales. Should go to an English player.

tbm

it will be, and should be, Billy V. Glad Nowell is on there. Best English back IMO.

Fretwired

And the amount of time wasted in a game - for example the endless setting of the scrum and the time it takes someone like Farrell to actually take a penalty. When the balls not in play the clock should be stopped. Farrell would have up to two minutes to take a penalty after which tough luck. During that two minutes the clock is off and it starts again when the ball is kicked into play from the restart. For a scrum the clock should start when the ball has been put into the scrum.

lloyd

Fretwired said:

And the amount of time wasted in a game - for example the endless setting of the scrum and the time it takes someone like Farrell to actually take a penalty. When the balls not in play the clock should be stopped. Farrell would have up to two minutes to take a penalty after which tough luck. During that two minutes the clock is off and it starts again when the ball is kicked into play from the restart. For a scrum the clock should start when the ball has been put into the scrum.

Wiz for this, I'd assume the reset scrum stats go up (if that's possible) when one team's on a yellow and towards the end of each half?

I think there's quite a few 'common sense' changes that every man and his dog want but never get implemented for whatever reason.

lloyd

http://www.the42.ie/mourad-boudjellal-european-super-league-2671582-Mar2016/

The guy's a bit of a nutter, but good to see this being discussed. We need some kind of arrangement similar to this or we will fall further behind the SH IMO.

It seems counterintuitive for France and England as they do have strong leagues but that's not translating to international success and you've the problem of the clubs as it's turkeys voting for Xmas.

If it doesn't happen I can see Wales dropping back to where Scotland are domestically over the next few years and even Ireland struggling after their Union has stopped the vast amounts they were investing in the Provinces.

@tbm do you know if domestic attendances have dropped over the last few years following Munster and Leinsters decline in Europe?

kjdowd

Agree re Davies. Wales are a different team with Webb at scrum half.

lloyd

kjdowd said:

lloyd;1009818" said:

On the citing commission side, I think the record shows that the bigger (and English speaking) nations have had an easier ride on decisions, I include Wales in that. I think French and Italian (internationally Fiji, Tonga etc) players have had harsher punishments than the home nations for similar offences.

I'm genuinely interested in this because instinctively I'd agree. However, you say that you think the record shows... and I think it is here that this potentially falls apart. As human beings, we are programmed not to understand trends or broader statistical truths but rather to focus on events. Therefore, we'll look at 2 incidents - one ending in a citing and one not - and says that there is bias towards the bigger nations, when of course an isolated comparison shows nothing of the sort.

My instinct is to agree with you on this - and certainly the scheduling of the last World Cup was pretty iffy on the tier 2 nations - but I'd love to see the actual stats. Do minor nations get cited more often?

@kjdowd

Looked up this as it was easier than citings (which I might do at some point this week) It's total Red Cards shown.

World Cup since 1987:

Wales 2

Australia 1

Argentina 1

Samoa 2

Tonga 2

Canada 3

SA 2

Fiji 1

Namibia 1

Uruguay 1

 

5/6N

France 5

Wales 4

Italy 3

Scotland 2

Ireland 1

England 0

While I've not gone through every incident and some of them go back to 1987 the World Cup ones show on the surface a tendency to punish the lesser nations more than the others. Of course you could say that them being under pressure leads to foul play but I think it's an interesting stat.

Tier 1: 5

Tier 2: 11 (assuming Argentina have been a Tier 2 side up until this WC)

The 6N one surprises me in that England seem to have not once committed a red card worthy foul in 80 games with Ireland with only one. Again, stats can be misleading but there we go.

crunchman

@lloyd - you seem to have too much time on your hands

lloyd

crunchman said:

@lloyd - you seem to have too much time on your hands

Lol very true! I hope my boss never finds this website...

kjdowd

lloyd;1010619" said:

crunchman said:

@lloyd - you seem to have too much time on your hands










Lol very true! I hope my boss never finds this website...

Interesting, though. It's a small sample size but suggestive that the tier 2s get a hard time.

England one is surprising. Suspect we'd fare less well on yellows and penalties.

Fretwired

Although Tonga will push up the stats for Tier 2 .. they always seem to be getting into fights.

exocet

lloyd said:

Fretwired said:

Sort the scrum out .. does anyone feed a straight ball?

Nope.

Although I always thought this was a more recent phenomenon, someone posted video of a game in the 70's in here and I was surprised to see the feeds were crooked then. Not that this makes it OK.

It's a real pet hate of mine, it's easy to spot and clearly has a material effect on who hooks the ball and in turn how the scrum is contested. I've never heard any explanation as to why it's not reffed properly. I would think that most rugby fans would like to see straight feeds in the scrum yet it's basically ignored. 

Same goes for straight line out throws.

The last time I played at Scrum Half was about 5 years ago....very low standard in the depths of Kent league 4.

I was always being pinged for crooked feeds then, even though what I was doing was nothing like what goes on at International level today. To me it looks like the ball is now being regularly fed in at a diagonal angle, towards the feet of the 2nd row?

lloyd

Right, so I really should do some work, but this seems more important....

For a comparison I've just had a look at Football WC red cards and started in 1974.

Since 1974

Chile 1

Uruguay 4

Zaire 1

Australia 3

Brazil 5

Hungary 2

Netherlands 4

Checkoslovakia 2

Honduras 1

Northern Ireland 1

Argentina 8

This is a random sample of the first few, which shows a much more equitable split between top teams and the lesser ones, the results are repeated to be fair with Spain, France and England up there with lots of Reds and smaller nations with a split.

Bigger Nations will be playing more WC's as they qualify more often but from this extremely small non-scientific view superficially there's something in it that doesn't look right.

lloyd

kjdowd said:

lloyd;1010619" said:

crunchman said:

@lloyd - you seem to have too much time on your hands










Lol very true! I hope my boss never finds this website...

Interesting, though. It's a small sample size but suggestive that the tier 2s get a hard time.

England one is surprising. Suspect we'd fare less well on yellows and penalties.

I can't find anything obvious that gives a list of yellows unfortunately.

lloyd

lloyd said:

kjdowd said:

lloyd;1009818" said:

On the citing commission side, I think the record shows that the bigger (and English speaking) nations have had an easier ride on decisions, I include Wales in that. I think French and Italian (internationally Fiji, Tonga etc) players have had harsher punishments than the home nations for similar offences.

I'm genuinely interested in this because instinctively I'd agree. However, you say that you think the record shows... and I think it is here that this potentially falls apart. As human beings, we are programmed not to understand trends or broader statistical truths but rather to focus on events. Therefore, we'll look at 2 incidents - one ending in a citing and one not - and says that there is bias towards the bigger nations, when of course an isolated comparison shows nothing of the sort.

My instinct is to agree with you on this - and certainly the scheduling of the last World Cup was pretty iffy on the tier 2 nations - but I'd love to see the actual stats. Do minor nations get cited more often?

@kjdowd

Looked up this as it was easier than citings (which I might do at some point this week) It's total Red Cards shown.

World Cup since 1987:

Wales 2

Australia 1

Argentina 1

Samoa 2

Tonga 2

Canada 3

SA 2

Fiji 1

Namibia 1

Uruguay 1

 

5/6N

France 5

Wales 4

Italy 3

Scotland 2

Ireland 1

England 0

While I've not gone through every incident and some of them go back to 1987 the World Cup ones show on the surface a tendency to punish the lesser nations more than the others. Of course you could say that them being under pressure leads to foul play but I think it's an interesting stat.

Tier 1: 5

Tier 2: 11 (assuming Argentina have been a Tier 2 side up until this WC)

The 6N one surprises me in that England seem to have not once committed a red card worthy foul in 80 games with Ireland with only one. Again, stats can be misleading but there we go.

I've edited this post, misunderstood the data, it's actually total red cards since the 5/6N started. So Italy have had 3 since 2000 while the others stats started from when red cards were introduced (1911 I think, but sendings off were allowed since 1888...) SO again that shows a pretty big bias towards a lesser Nation which could well be mitigated by the fact they're under pressure/shit etc.

koneguitarist

Why am I not surprised that Wales have had more red cards than England Scotland and Ireland together! Any one remember Wade Dooley smashing Phil Davies from a blind side punch and breaking his cheek bone, how about Flannery kicking Pallison so hard he almost broke his leg?

Oh how about Cian Heally stamping on Dan Cole's leg, or Bod stamping on chest of an Italian caught in a ruck? So much foul play has gone on but even if cited, hardly any real bans. 

Yet I dare say we all remember Gavin Henson getting 12 weeks and 2 days, (2 days extra was important as it kept him out of another international match) for a stray elbow. 

The outcry over Pape for knee into Heaslip back, but OBrien punching a unsuspecting Pape in the guts and dropping him, oh well it's only a punch. 

Always remember when Oliviar Merle head butted Ricky Evans, causing Ricky to fall and break his ankle. In the rugby special Geoff Cooke and Jason Leonard were on with French coach, and they were saying how band Merle was and he should be banned. French Coach said I agree we will ban him, now look at Ben Clarke England No8 stamping on Simon Geoghan's chest in same weekend of six nations, are you gonna ban him? Nothing more was said on matter. And it's not just Wales or France but it depends on who you play, Danny Grewcock, not the best record for discipline I admit, but he was banned for biting Kevin Meealamu finger, what the hell was his finger doing in Grewcocks mouth, apart from trying to fish hook the guy! You only have to look at YT to show loads of foul play which has resulted in yellow card or just a penalty for one team, but red card and long bans for another. 

That's what pisses me off about citing inconsistency, and the proof is there this weekend. 

lloyd

Fretwired said:

lloyd said:

Good points well made @kjdowd while Owens does let the game flow, I think he goes too far (not to mention his look at me antics, especially when he's on the touchline, always comes to have a word to get on tv....) Barnes is too whistle happy and goes too far the other way. I'd be happy for the game to be reffed either way to be honest, as long as it's done consistently.

Good grief .. you want a perfect world. It's not going to happen. IMHO rugby is being ruined by the stop/start TMO rubbish. Refs aren't always going to get it right - it's part of the game. The TMO is useful for the 'is there any reason I can't award a try' scenarios and dangerous play but it's getting beyond a joke. Owens is the best ref in the world and I thought he does very - he lets the game flow ... the world we are heading to will be a game of stop start check with 10 other officials to make sure the ref didn't miss something.

Again I'd say this is unfair, the post you quote sees me say I'd be happy for it to be officiated either way as long as there is consistency. Consistent decisions aren't what I'd call a perfect world, it's probably the least the sport deserves. Nigel Owens letting the game flow for me can be translated as doesn't referee the rules properly. Yeah that's one opinion and there's many others on him and his style of refereeing but there we go. The problem with letting things go is that sometimes the same offences are penalised and sometimes not, the team penalised will see that in some instances as bias. His style of refereeing will also benefit certain teams, that have a certain way of playing. I think the phrase "knowing how to play the ref" is one of the saddest in sport....no other sport has a similar outlook and it elevates the referee into a position where they can and do have an effect on the outcome of a game, which for me is sad, there's no other sport I can think of where this is the case?

Fretwired

lloyd said:

Fretwired said:

lloyd said:

Good points well made @kjdowd while Owens does let the game flow, I think he goes too far (not to mention his look at me antics, especially when he's on the touchline, always comes to have a word to get on tv....) Barnes is too whistle happy and goes too far the other way. I'd be happy for the game to be reffed either way to be honest, as long as it's done consistently.

Good grief .. you want a perfect world. It's not going to happen. IMHO rugby is being ruined by the stop/start TMO rubbish. Refs aren't always going to get it right - it's part of the game. The TMO is useful for the 'is there any reason I can't award a try' scenarios and dangerous play but it's getting beyond a joke. Owens is the best ref in the world and I thought he does very - he lets the game flow ... the world we are heading to will be a game of stop start check with 10 other officials to make sure the ref didn't miss something.

Again I'd say this is unfair, the post you quote sees me say I'd be happy for it to be officiated either way as long as there is consistency. Consistent decisions aren't what I'd call a perfect world, it's probably the least the sport deserves. Nigel Owens letting the game flow for me can be translated as doesn't referee the rules properly. Yeah that's one opinion and there's many others on him and his style of refereeing but there we go. The problem with letting things go is that sometimes the same offences are penalised and sometimes not, the team penalised will see that in some instances as bias. His style of refereeing will also benefit certain teams, that have a certain way of playing. I think the phrase "knowing how to play the ref" is one of the saddest in sport....no other sport has a similar outlook and it elevates the referee into a position where they can and do have an effect on the outcome of a game, which for me is sad, there's no other sport I can think of where this is the case?

I wasn't having a  pop at you, just that, as in football, there are different styles of referee and I can't ever see that changing. The players like Owens because he is consistent. He was on Saturday. Rugby will get ruined with too many minor petty rules and too much time wasted everything from setting the scrum to the TMO. Not sure if a try has been scored and you can't see clearly? Award the try and give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team.