Forcing strict alternate picking after years economy picking

Jack_

Hi all, as the title suggests...

I've never had a face to face guitar lesson, and so while teaching myself, I've developed naturally the economy picking technique, it just seemed natural; going to the next string in the 'easiest/quickest' way.

However, now, after years of economy picking (about 6-7 years) I'd like to force myself into using strict alternate picking.

Has anyone got any advice? When I look for alternate picking lessons on the web, they all tend to assume that you're a beginner who only uses downstrokes, there's nothing out there that helps me in trying to force myself to alternate pick.

The problem I have is when I try to consciously alternate pick, I always make the mistake of subconsciously slipping back to economy, and I can't seem to stop myself.

Is it just down to practice? Keep forcing alternate until I no longer economy pick? It just seems like it's never going to happen...

And to people who use both techniques, how do you separate them? What stops you slipping into using one when you wanted to use the other?

Any lessons/exercises/articles highly appreciated.

Thanks.

dafuzz

Paul Gilbert's Intense Rock on DVD is probably your ticket - took my picking to a whole new level

Jack_

dafuzz said:

Paul Gilbert's Intense Rock on DVD is probably your ticket - took my picking to a whole new level

Yeah, Paul is the go to guy for alternate so it seems, I've been using his 4 and 6 note patterns and 3 notes per string patterns to practice.

It's not my understanding of alternate that is the problem, it's purely an old habit that I'd like to control, and was hoping maybe a few others have done the same thing in the past and might have some advice.

I know quite a few guys who learned economy naturally by accident just accepted it and never learnt to properly alternate, but I want to learn to. Even just from doing 2 note outside and inside movements I can see the rhythmical advantage even at a slow pace.

JezWynd

The skills you have evolved over time are self taught so it does seem like hard work to now try and force a technique. I imagine it has to be down to practise, just doing it repeatedly until it's worn it's own groove in your mind. Or perhaps try adding some new material to your repertoire that incorporates the new style from the outset?

randomhandclaps

Out of interest, what are you seeing as an advantage of alternate picking over economy picking?

Jack_

randomhandclaps said:

Out of interest, what are you seeing as an advantage of alternate picking over economy picking?

Not sure about advantage, it just seems easier to keep time over longer sequences, and has a different sound, different accenting, feels a bit quicker in certain scenarios too.

musteatbrain

Troy Grady

randomhandclaps

Jack_ said:

randomhandclaps said:

Out of interest, what are you seeing as an advantage of alternate picking over economy picking?

Not sure about advantage, it just seems easier to keep time over longer sequences, and has a different sound, different accenting, feels a bit quicker in certain scenarios too.

Fair enough.  That makes perfect sense if you think it'll help you.  It's just people see economy picking as a progression from alternate picking so it was interesting to see someone looking to move the other way.

dafuzz

Jack_ said:

dafuzz said:

Paul Gilbert's Intense Rock on DVD is probably your ticket - took my picking to a whole new level

Yeah, Paul is the go to guy for alternate so it seems, I've been using his 4 and 6 note patterns and 3 notes per string patterns to practice.

It's not my understanding of alternate that is the problem, it's purely an old habit that I'd like to control, and was hoping maybe a few others have done the same thing in the past and might have some advice.

I know quite a few guys who learned economy naturally by accident just accepted it and never learnt to properly alternate, but I want to learn to. Even just from doing 2 note outside and inside movements I can see the rhythmical advantage even at a slow pace.

I don't get it - are you trying to strictly alternate pick *everything*? Cos there's a time and a place for both approaches.

When it came to re-learning things I'd learned before (the intro to Light My Fire, arranged for guitar, springs to mind) it was a painful process of slowing it down and forcing myself to alt pick until I'd built up the required muscle memory

When it comes to improvising, just let fly...

Jack_

randomhandclaps said:

Jack_ said:

randomhandclaps said:

Out of interest, what are you seeing as an advantage of alternate picking over economy picking?

Not sure about advantage, it just seems easier to keep time over longer sequences, and has a different sound, different accenting, feels a bit quicker in certain scenarios too.

Fair enough.  That makes perfect sense if you think it'll help you.  It's just people see economy picking as a progression from alternate picking so it was interesting to see someone looking to move the other way.

Yeah, I understand it's usually a progression, but because my economy picking hasn't developed from strict alternate, I think it's a bit sloppy, and that going back and learning strict alternate will actually help me with my economy as well. I don't want to completely forget economy, just want to add alternate and be able to switch between the two.

dafuzz said:

Jack_ said:

dafuzz said:

Paul Gilbert's Intense Rock on DVD is probably your ticket - took my picking to a whole new level

Yeah, Paul is the go to guy for alternate so it seems, I've been using his 4 and 6 note patterns and 3 notes per string patterns to practice.

It's not my understanding of alternate that is the problem, it's purely an old habit that I'd like to control, and was hoping maybe a few others have done the same thing in the past and might have some advice.

I know quite a few guys who learned economy naturally by accident just accepted it and never learnt to properly alternate, but I want to learn to. Even just from doing 2 note outside and inside movements I can see the rhythmical advantage even at a slow pace.

I don't get it - are you trying to strictly alternate pick *everything*? Cos there's a time and a place for both approaches.

When it came to re-learning things I'd learned before (the intro to Light My Fire, arranged for guitar, springs to mind) it was a painful process of slowing it down and forcing myself to alt pick until I'd built up the required muscle memory

When it comes to improvising, just let fly...

Not everything, just where it's appropriate, it makes a lot of sense when playing scales for example, if you're playing 3 note per string scales, if you economy pick you tend to get a more triplet type sound, but when you alternate pick you tend to get a more strict 4/4 16ths pattern, so I guess this is a good example of where you'd want to use either method depending on the sound you want.

I know you could get strict 4/4 16ths with economy, but it doesn't feel as natural to keep that rhythm, it's hard to explain exactly...

Jack_

Double Post, sorry.

Roland

Jack_ said:

randomhandclaps said:

Out of interest, what are you seeing as an advantage of alternate picking over economy picking?

Not sure about advantage, it just seems easier to keep time over longer sequences, and has a different sound, different accenting, feels a bit quicker in certain scenarios too.

I'd focus on the sound and the accenting, and let the picking support that.  To my mind it's irrelevant whether you use alternate or economy picking on any particular phrase as long as it sounds right.

ElectroDan

I agree with most of what others have written here.

Your economy picking will be a great asset to you, and it's definitely worth running through a few exercises (perhaps with more of an effort to accent the right notes), to keep this in your picking arsenal.

Paul Gilberts video's are awesome as are Vinnie Moore's, Eric Johnson's and Steve Morse. But for the deepest analysis and best explanations of how Alternate picking works (as well as how you can incorporate it into your Economy picking), Troy Grady's "Cracking the code" is fantastic.

Once you have a solid grounding in Alternate picking too, you can decide which technique to use for which passages you play depending on what is easiest or what sounds best. Don't forget the Legato too. Good luck.

Jack_

ElectroDan said:

I agree with most of what others have written here.

Your economy picking will be a great asset to you, and it's definitely worth running through a few exercises (perhaps with more of an effort to accent the right notes), to keep this in your picking arsenal.

Paul Gilberts video's are awesome as are Vinnie Moore's, Eric Johnson's and Steve Morse. But for the deepest analysis and best explanations of how Alternate picking works (as well as how you can incorporate it into your Economy picking), Troy Grady's "Cracking the code" is fantastic.

Once you have a solid grounding in Alternate picking too, you can decide which technique to use for which passages you play depending on what is easiest or what sounds best. Don't forget the Legato too. Good luck.

I've watched some of the Troy Grady stuff, but it's so in depth that it's confusing in places; information overload.

If you're traditionally an alternate picking player, do you stick to alternate when playing legato licks? So if you were playing a 3 note per string scale, and you pick the first note and hammer-on the following two on the same string, and then go down to the next string, and do the same again, would you alternate the pick on the first string and the pick on the second string, or would you just go down, down because there's legato in between?

musteatbrain

I'd probably pick down then up so I'm clear of all the strings after the upstroke. It won't really matter as you're likely to be able to get the pick clear of the strings and ready for the next down or upstroke before you have finished the next two notes if you are using legato for them.

Jack_

musteatbrain said:

I'd probably pick down then up so I'm clear of all the strings after the upstroke. It won't really matter as you're likely to be able to get the pick clear of the strings and ready for the next down or upstroke before you have finished the next two notes if you are using legato for them.

With legato patterns, if I do it naturally, it sort of feels right to pick down if descending strings (E to e) and pick up if ascending strings (e to E) - almost like sweep legato, if that makes sense? This is assuming consistent legato runs with multiple notes per string, if I was playing a 2 note per string pentatonic type thing where I was ascending and descending strings with no regularity I don't think I'd be as rigid though.

This has all got me delving into this more deeply than I thought it would...

ElectroDan

My legato, economy picking and alternate picking are so mixed together now that it'd be hard to pick them apart.

I came up with a way of playing the first two notes down - up, then hammering on the third, then repeating for the next string. It avoids the change of direction you get with strict alternate picking and ends each string on an upstroke (so the pick is free to change string easily).

I thought I was a genius until I watched "Cracking the Code" and realised Yngwie and Paul Gilbert had been doing something similar for years.

Jack_

ElectroDan said:

My legato, economy picking and alternate picking are so mixed together now that it'd be hard to pick them apart.

I came up with a way of playing the first two notes down - up, then hammering on the third, then repeating for the next string. It avoids the change of direction you get with strict alternate picking and ends each string on an upstroke (so the pick is free to change string easily).

I thought I was a genius until I watched "Cracking the Code" and realised Yngwie and Paul Gilbert had been doing something similar for years.

I watched that part of Cracking the Code where he talks about angling the pick away from the guitar body so that the pick becomes free of strings after an upstroke. 

The whole of CtC is hours long is it not? I should probably watch it all, but I'm not a huge fan of the way it's presented, he presents like it's a space exploration program, like he's just found life on Mars, so much detail too, almost too much, more like a dissertation paper on picking dynamics rather than a lesson.

ElectroDan

Yeah, the first series, he dragged out the info way too much for my liking. The season 2 stuff is much better, sticks to the point a bit more and the graphic depictions make the concepts easier to understand. He also has a Masters in Mechanics seminar where he dissects a top players technique to see how they achieve seemingly impossible feats of picking.

If anything it has increased my use of Economy picking. I look a little more closely at how I chose to play certain runs too. The end goal for me is to be able to seamlessly switch between all of the available picking techniques to suit what I'm playing. I might get there one day.

Clarky

dafuzz said:

Jack_ said:

dafuzz said:

Paul Gilbert's Intense Rock on DVD is probably your ticket - took my picking to a whole new level

Yeah, Paul is the go to guy for alternate so it seems, I've been using his 4 and 6 note patterns and 3 notes per string patterns to practice.

It's not my understanding of alternate that is the problem, it's purely an old habit that I'd like to control, and was hoping maybe a few others have done the same thing in the past and might have some advice.

I know quite a few guys who learned economy naturally by accident just accepted it and never learnt to properly alternate, but I want to learn to. Even just from doing 2 note outside and inside movements I can see the rhythmical advantage even at a slow pace.

I don't get it - are you trying to strictly alternate pick *everything*? Cos there's a time and a place for both approaches.

When it came to re-learning things I'd learned before (the intro to Light My Fire, arranged for guitar, springs to mind) it was a painful process of slowing it down and forcing myself to alt pick until I'd built up the required muscle memory

When it comes to improvising, just let fly…

I agree… I use both..

I mostly alternate pick, but some licks just sound or feel better non-altternate picked

alt, non-alt and legato all sound and feel different

the trick is to nail all of them..

then you have choice.. so you can choose one over another because the lick makes more sense to play that way..

or more importantly because you want to exploit its tonal characteristics..

the killer difficulty to overcome though is control over your technique

you need to be able to decide how you want to play something and not have your technique decide for you

nickp

assuming that you are wanting to be able to use both as clarky suggests.

how about arpeggios.  choose something like intro to design for life, hotel california, mr brightside, still got the blues by gary moore and with a slow metronome slow alt pick the arpeggiated chords.  work on that song gradually increasing tempo aiming for accuracy and control at all times before moving on.

After a while (weeks in my case) I am now able to play arp chords pretty well - I'm doing mr brightside and hotel cali for our band now and volunteered for the arp role

re alt picking generally,  scales and arpeggios.  same idea, always vs a metronome starting slow going for triplets and 4 notes per beat but accuracy is key so as steve morse says - for about 90% of the time play at 60% of your top speed (or something like that).

with the arpeggios and scales - sequence them so play in groups of 2, 3,4,5,6 which forces flexibility into your right hand (and left).  Particularly with arps where you play "funny" intervals (compared to scales) across the fretboard.  with this sequencing the lightbult then lights about what bonamassa is about.

if you find anything difficult such as picking inside or outside then focus on that - again to a metronome and remember to concentrate on the bits you find difficult not easy (steve bloody morse again)

does that help at all.  I have some details on this stuff if you are happy to concentrate on pentatonic scales (all 5 shapes in all keys) and dominant 7 arps.