Non-Guitar Centric Music

What's Hot
11113151617

Comments

  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Snap said:

    Did this a while ago, then forgot all about it, blame Christmas


    cheers

    you gone and got yourself a dubstep sample library???
    I love those sounds.. they're kinda mental
    play every note as if it were your first
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • SnapSnap Frets: 6256

    @Clarky LMAO!!

    You know mate, the only sample loop in there is the glitchy vocal. Oh, and one drumloop.

    All the rest is played in. The drums are done using midi patterns from AD2 then dropped into Battery. There are a couple of sample hits actually in Battery, you can hear one that goes sort of fworp (wf? ) ).

    I used Alchemy and Gladiator synths in this, two synths I haven't used in ages. Still got a copy of the original Alchemy VST, and a few libraries. I LOVE this rompler. So much so, I still have an older ipad that I haven't flogged cos it has the full Alchemy kit on it, with all the libraries ever released. Since Camel Audio was bought by Apple, the VST is gone, and the OS version doesn't work on anything after iOS 9. So I kept the ipad air it's on. Alchemy just has some amazing sounds on it. All the pads on this are from it, that swirling scraping sound is part of the patch too. Ace.

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Snap said:

    @Clarky LMAO!!

    You know mate, the only sample loop in there is the glitchy vocal. Oh, and one drumloop.

    All the rest is played in. The drums are done using midi patterns from AD2 then dropped into Battery. There are a couple of sample hits actually in Battery, you can hear one that goes sort of fworp (wf? ) ).

    I used Alchemy and Gladiator synths in this, two synths I haven't used in ages. Still got a copy of the original Alchemy VST, and a few libraries. I LOVE this rompler. So much so, I still have an older ipad that I haven't flogged cos it has the full Alchemy kit on it, with all the libraries ever released. Since Camel Audio was bought by Apple, the VST is gone, and the OS version doesn't work on anything after iOS 9. So I kept the ipad air it's on. Alchemy just has some amazing sounds on it. All the pads on this are from it, that swirling scraping sound is part of the patch too. Ace.

    ah... very cool...

    there were a few sounds in there tat reminded of some a pal had in 'wob wob' library.. lol

    I've never used Alchemy.. I don't know it at all
    play every note as if it were your first
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • SnapSnap Frets: 6256
    Alchemy is really good. Its bundled in with Logic these days, but I think its a cut down version. Its a bit like Omnisphere, ish, You can import your own audio too, which is neat. Very easy to use, very intuitive. It was one of the first synths I got really into once I got back into recording synths. Before then it had all been hardware, and in the 80s!
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Snap said:
    Alchemy is really good. Its bundled in with Logic these days, but I think its a cut down version. Its a bit like Omnisphere, ish, You can import your own audio too, which is neat. Very easy to use, very intuitive. It was one of the first synths I got really into once I got back into recording synths. Before then it had all been hardware, and in the 80s!
    sounds really interesting..
    I have Omnisphere [the original version] - which I absolutely adore
    play every note as if it were your first
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • SnapSnap Frets: 6256
    If you like Omnisphere, you will like Alchemy. There are still, err "versions" shall we say available in various places, as well as the Apple-ised version in Logic.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Snap said:
    If you like Omnisphere, you will like Alchemy. There are still, err "versions" shall we say available in various places, as well as the Apple-ised version in Logic.
    hahaaaaa just found it in Logic.. 
    it's pretty cool... I need to goof with this
    play every note as if it were your first
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • SnapSnap Frets: 6256

    The original had a load of libraries by various sound engineers that were so good. I don't know how much of that has been brought through into Logic, or if you can load them. Just some lovely big sounds. The ipad app is phenomenal IMO. Real shame it disappeared.

    You ever have CamelPhat, and/or CamelCrusher? Again, superb plugins.

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Snap said:

    The original had a load of libraries by various sound engineers that were so good. I don't know how much of that has been brought through into Logic, or if you can load them. Just some lovely big sounds. The ipad app is phenomenal IMO. Real shame it disappeared.

    You ever have CamelPhat, and/or CamelCrusher? Again, superb plugins.

    I have Camel Crusher.. I use is all over the place..
    it's great for adding sparkle to acoustic / clean guitars, grit to vocals, energy to lead synths, crack to snares, sizzle to cymbals etc
    it's my goto dirt box... ooo-errr missus
    play every note as if it were your first
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • SnapSnap Frets: 6256

    Another track I found that I did a while back, a repeating groove, with some funky fretless guitar on it and a bit of laid back sampling. I think I'd probably been listening to St Germain or something similar, anyway, it's supposed to be very mellow and chilling

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Snap said:

    Another track I found that I did a while back, a repeating groove, with some funky fretless guitar on it and a bit of laid back sampling. I think I'd probably been listening to St Germain or something similar, anyway, it's supposed to be very mellow and chilling

    not sure if I'm hearing this right, but it sounds to me like the chords in the keys are E and D [both major] but your bass is playing Em pentatonic..
    to my ears it sounds like a conflict between the two tonalities, especially when the bass lands on a G..
    play every note as if it were your first
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • SnapSnap Frets: 6256

    @Clarky, you could well be right mate, tbh, I don't even remember doing this track at all. Found it in an archive, thought it sounded vaguely interesting, and was an excuse to post in this thread lol.

    I am actually working on some "proper" stuff, but its very guitar focused.

    I'd quite like a Capri. Mk1 3.0 would do me. Or a late 280, 1987 ish.

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Snap said:

    @Clarky, you could well be right mate, tbh, I don't even remember doing this track at all. Found it in an archive, thought it sounded vaguely interesting, and was an excuse to post in this thread lol.

    I am actually working on some "proper" stuff, but its very guitar focused.

    I'd quite like a Capri. Mk1 3.0 would do me. Or a late 280, 1987 ish.

    aaahhh yes..

    one thing that can happen when creating tracks that develop in layers is that you can hear the next layer, but the focus of attention you're hearing the new layer against can be a single instrument rather than the tonality of the piece as a whole..
    this is not only true for cyclic pieces, but also when composing anything as you build on a given section piece by piece..

    I got my fingers burnt this way many times when working on my early orchestral pieces
    just adding part after part until I ended up with a dissonant mess, and not understanding why it didn't work until I looked in detail at what exactly I'd put each new part up against..
    it's really easily done... and now I'm extremely mindful of this and play close attention to it
    play every note as if it were your first
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • SnapSnap Frets: 6256
    edited March 2019

    Sage words Clarky. I absorb.

    I have started revisiting Bach and harmony etc and how it applies to arrangement. He knew a thing or two.....

    Cortina Mk III, GT. Now you're talking. If I had a pit, a block and tackle and the time necessary, I'd have one. And a TR8, but I don't, pmsl.

    Maybe when I retire.....


    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Snap said:

    Sage words Clarky. I absorb.

    I have started revisiting Bach and harmony etc and how it applies to arrangement. He knew a thing or two.....

    Cortina Mk III, GT. Now you're talking. If I had a pit, a block and tackle and the time necessary, I'd have one. And a TR8, but I don't, pmsl.

    Maybe when I retire.....


    I was studying, of all people, Dr Dre mixes [because they are superb]..
    trying to discover how on Earth he manager to get that 'size' into them..
    then I started examining DeadMouse and Swedish House Mafia mixes too..

    they had stuff in common.. size and clarity... but how?
    I analysed them using the Ozone meters and then the penny dropped..
    throughout the entire freq range, only one thing occupies any given range..
    this also applies to the notes..
    so.. the bass instrument never overlaps with whatever is playing the chords [be it a synth or sampled strings loop or whatever]..
    the vocal range never has an instrument playing within it's range.. everything is separated and uncluttered..
    so I took it a stage further and looked at Mozart, Wagner, Beethoven etc orchestral scores..
    and there it was.. almost always exactly the same thing...
    where there are bass trombones, there are not contra bassoons and double basses..
    where there is an oboe there is no trumpet or 1st / 2nd violins.. at least not on the same notes / or playing lines in the same space..
    everything has a space..
    ok that's not the rule 100% of the time.. they do occasionally blend tones.. but they are generally in unison..
    like flutes sweetening soft cornets, or bassoons adding a little weight to French Horns when they are playing high..

    so.. even in these huge orchestral pieces.. there are typically only 4 melodic lines..
    or as I was taught.. 4 part harmony / counterpoint..
    even though some voices may be spread across a few octaves in different instruments from different sections..
    bass, tenor, alto, soprano...

    and then I'm sat there thinking.. Dre and Co are doing nothing different to Beethoven
    play every note as if it were your first
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • SnapSnap Frets: 6256

    @Clarky - mate, that is fascinating. I'm going to take that and make it a core principle in my next effort. I really struggle with mixing and then mastering. I have one or two where I somehow nailed it and I don't know how, but I think what you have here is the key. I did a track, It Is Not The Truth, and I am really chuffed with the overall mix, it has everything I would want to replicate, but I really don't know what I did. I think this might be the explanation.

    If I've posted before, apologies for repetition:

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Snap said:

    @Clarky - mate, that is fascinating. I'm going to take that and make it a core principle in my next effort. I really struggle with mixing and then mastering. I have one or two where I somehow nailed it and I don't know how, but I think what you have here is the key. I did a track, It Is Not The Truth, and I am really chuffed with the overall mix, it has everything I would want to replicate, but I really don't know what I did. I think this might be the explanation.

    If I've posted before, apologies for repetition:

    immediately you can hear better freq separation..
    everything has it's place.. and it doesn't contain too many different layers / parts so there's pretty much no colliding / wrestling for space going on..

    and as a result.. notice how big and clear it is..

    I generally try to do something like this no matter if the piece is orchestra or not [not including drums / perc]

    I<- bass ->I<- tenor ->I<- alto ->I<- soprano ->I
    I<- bass notes ->I<- riff / accomp / pad notes ->/<- vocal / melody notes ->I<- counter melody / harmony notes ->I

    of course you can swap all this around.. like having Trombs playing an epic melody in the tenor range so it swaps places with the accomp part..
    or the local is not that high so the pad from the keys sits above it..
    or the vocal / solo / melody is the highest thing going on so everything is below it..
    so generally I try to avoid too many overlaps [which can also be unavoidable at times too]

    and if I'm making a huge mammoth orchestral chord.. I'll try [without getting it right 100% of the time.. lol] to interleave the voices by section
    for example it could be:
    ContraBass / Tromb / Cello / Fr Horn / Viola / Alto Tromb / 2nd violin / Trump / 1st violin
    also with the bass choir doubling the Tromb, the tenors doubling the Fr Horn, the altos doubling the viola and the sopranos with the trumps or 1st violins [which ever has the melody]
    in this example I have strings, brass and choir all playing at the same time.. only the choir doubles with other instrument sections.. but notice that the choir is doubling rather than doing something different in the same general area.. so there are no clashes.. if however I wanted one or more of the choral sections to do something different, I'd try to make space... so I'd possibly double a part between the strings and brass...
    also.. and importantly.. I'd try quite hard to avoid having more than 4 independent melodic parts.. 
    this means that all 4 parts would be repeated in different octaves by different sections
    the obvious one is the bass.. the tomb playing the same as the contra bass an octave higher..
    but I could also have the 2nd violins doubling the tenor part [in this example the cello section]..
    sometimes it don't work too.. you just have to goof with it whilst trying to be mindful of the general principles around separation..
    I'll not shit you.. this stuff can be really really hard to sort... lol..
    when you're dealing with a full orchestra, choir, synths, huge war drums.. it can get crowded..
    that's when you have to ask.. what do I need the most? and then start stripping stuff out [which is counter intuitive]..
    then all of a sudden.. things start sounding clear and huge...

    that stuff above is just an example.. I don't do everything the same way every time.. it depends on the context..
    but the general principle is something I try to aim for..
    or start looking for when I think I've over done it and things are not working

    it's a really cool piece btw..
    play every note as if it were your first
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • SnapSnap Frets: 6256

    @Clarky ace stuff, I do love all this, appreciate it.

    Production wise - I like Unkle. If you don't know them, check em out, very good. A collective really, built around James Lavelle, the founder of MoWax records. Listen to an album called War Stories to get the idea of his production - he always has deep resonant bass that sounds just spot on. Also Edit Music For a Film, great album. I think you'll like it. Varied and skilful

     I was aiming for that on this track here, and I got part way there. I need to deconstruct it, study the mix etc.


    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Snap said:

    @Clarky ace stuff, I do love all this, appreciate it.

    Production wise - I like Unkle. If you don't know them, check em out, very good. A collective really, built around James Lavelle, the founder of MoWax records. Listen to an album called War Stories to get the idea of his production - he always has deep resonant bass that sounds just spot on. Also Edit Music For a Film, great album. I think you'll like it. Varied and skilful

     I was aiming for that on this track here, and I got part way there. I need to deconstruct it, study the mix etc.


    been checking it out.. not my usual sort of thing, however I really enjoyed it..

    yes the production is very nice...
    and yes absolutely deconstruct it..
    listed in detail to all of the parts playing
    not only to what range of notes are occupied by specific instruments, but also listen for the frequencies that are enabling instruments to stand out or give way to others..
    listening that deeply to music takes a lot of practice..

    one of the things to try is to get a WAV of the music into a DAW like Logic, then pop a parametric on it
    make a band pretty thin [a Q of 3 or more], give it a nice boost and then carefully sweep the frequencies to find out which instruments live where [which dominate in a particular place]..
    also.. if [like the EQ in Logic or Ozone] you have metering [spectrum analyser] you can also see what's going on..
    one of the things they teach producers / mix engineers is to be able to hear and recognise specific frequencies..
    like 100, 200, 500, 1k, 2.5k, 5k, 7k, 10k
    when you do this for the first time you'll be really surprised at how wrong you are.. at least I was.. lol
    play every note as if it were your first
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • SnapSnap Frets: 6256

    Cheers Clarky. Glad you checked Unkle out, I think he's very diverse and interesting. New album was released only on Friday, pretty good.

    I keep meaning to study reference tracks, so will follow your guidelines. Maybe I will start with ripping one of the tracks off War Stories and see how I go. I've got the VST stuff to do it too.

    As usual, I haven't got the time!!

    tbh, I've no real method to it, and little idea. I tend to fumble along. That's fine when the mix is simple, but yeah, once it gets cluttered, I start to struggle really, trying to de gunge it. Technical term there....

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
Sign In or Register to comment.