I'd like to learn legato, properly(ish).

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  • BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
    Barney said:
    Branshen said:
    spectacular display of technique does your left hand feel tired at all doing that? 30 seconds of trying that and my left hand is spent. also, how close can you get it to the levels if you were picking by just using your left hand? I suppose more gain might be the solution?
    No I'm ok as far as my hand getting tired ..it dosnt really ...it would more so repeating  power chords for a length of time 

    I'm not sure what you mean about when you say picking using the left hand ?

    Yeah gain helps but works without gain as well...what I find hard is when ascending getting the first note to ring using the first finger ... this was just a exercise with my right hand being out of action..
    Sorry, my question was phrased confusingly. What I meant to ask is how close to flatpicking-volume can you get, by just using your fretting hand? From your video, it sounds like you get plenty volume out of your fretting hand. 
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  • KebabkidKebabkid Frets: 3301
     Take a look at this by Brett Garsed - it's the whole instruction video and there should be something amongst all this



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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    Branshen said:
    Barney said:
    Branshen said:
    spectacular display of technique does your left hand feel tired at all doing that? 30 seconds of trying that and my left hand is spent. also, how close can you get it to the levels if you were picking by just using your left hand? I suppose more gain might be the solution?
    No I'm ok as far as my hand getting tired ..it dosnt really ...it would more so repeating  power chords for a length of time 

    I'm not sure what you mean about when you say picking using the left hand ?

    Yeah gain helps but works without gain as well...what I find hard is when ascending getting the first note to ring using the first finger ... this was just a exercise with my right hand being out of action..
    Sorry, my question was phrased confusingly. What I meant to ask is how close to flatpicking-volume can you get, by just using your fretting hand? From your video, it sounds like you get plenty volume out of your fretting hand. 
    Yeah I can get same volume but cant accent like you can with a pick :)
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    Barney said:


    I done something a few months ago when I could use the picking hand ...dont iff it will be any help but it will show you can do quite a bit with just the fretting hand 

    Very impressive, sounds like all hammer ons for both ascending and descending.

    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    Kebabkid said:
     Take a look at this by Brett Garsed - it's the whole instruction video and there should be something amongst all this



    His Legato Pull Off technique is described at 13:06min.

    He picks a lot of his descending notes.

    Yes, he's very, very good, I've watched the Brett Garsed video before, he's was quoted by Tom Quayle in an article. The video is not very clear
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • WazmeisterWazmeister Frets: 9446





    It absolutely amazes me that anyone would want to play like this... tuneless row.... (I sound like my Dad...)
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    This explains the two Legato techniques.

    1.) Hammer on's and pull offs plucking the string.
    2.) Hammer on's only technique.





    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    These are the best videos I've found yet for the "Hammer on's only" technique.





    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    edited April 2020
    Here's more from the same youtube channel:




    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • JohnCordyJohnCordy Frets: 650
    I've done a couple bits of this on my YouTube.

    Realistically, things needn't be as black and white as the Marshall Harrison Vs Satch (traditional) legato approaches, as you can actually combine the two approaches as the mechanics are not mutually exclusive.

     
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  • BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
    Wazmeister said:

    It absolutely amazes me that anyone would want to play like this... tuneless row.... (I sound like my Dad...)
    Used sparingly and tastefully, it can be mind-blowing! 
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  • BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
    JohnCordy said:
    I've done a couple bits of this on my YouTube.

    Realistically, things needn't be as black and white as the Marshall Harrison Vs Satch (traditional) legato approaches, as you can actually combine the two approaches as the mechanics are not mutually exclusive.

     
    Drop us some links!
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  • JohnCordyJohnCordy Frets: 650
    here's one.

    Some of my basic advice is - play everything lighter. You're not actually aiming to generate velocity with the pick, more kind of feather the note to try and keep the hammers and pulls at a similar volume ton the picked note.

    And practice playing in even 4s, this will help you to smooth out lines across string transitions.


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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    edited April 2020

    Excellent stuff as usual John Cordy.


    Hammer on's only style descending.

    This quote was enlightening:

    "There are a few conceptual difficulties people often have when they first hear of descending hammers, and how it can be physically possible. This can be dispelled via physical reasoning.

    Suppose we are performing an ascending hammer on. Suppose for the sake of discussion that we fret a note with the index finger, pluck it and hammer a whole tone above with the ring finger. There is a very brief, imperceptible period of time between the moment when the flesh of the ring finger makes contact with the string and the moment when the string makes contact with the fret. During this period, the original note (with the index finger) has been damped by the contact with the flesh of the ring finger, and the higher note cannot be ringing, as it has not yet been fretted with the ring finger. Thus, by simple physical reasoning, there absolutely must be a “gap” between the original note and the hammered note.

    We should not think the gap being eliminated, as this is impossible. Instead, we should think of the gap as having been shrunk to the point where it is imperceptible. This is relatively easy to ensure with an ascending hammer, and so the gap is not perceived.

    Suppose instead we wish to perform a descending hammer. Again, for discussion, we fret a note with the ring finger and pluck. If we are to descend without pulling off, we must lift the ring finger and hammer below with the index finger in a concerted movement.

    Let us examine the gaps in this instance. There is a brief period between the moment when the string stops contacting the fret under the ring finger and the moment when the ring finger stops contacting the string. During this period, the original note with the ring finger is not ringing, as it is not fretted. Further, the string must be damped, as the ring finger is still in contact with the string.

    There is another brief period where between the moment the index finger contacts the string and the moment the string make contact with the lower fret. Again, during this period the lower note cannot be ringing, as it has not yet been fretted.

    Let t denote the time variable. Let a and b be the initial and terminal time values of the first period mentioned above. Let c and d be the initial and terminal time values of the second period mentioned above.

    We have three distinct scenarios:

    1. The ring finger ceases to be in contact with the string before the index finger makes contact. That is, a<b<c<d. In this case, there is a period where neither finger is in contact with the string, and thus the string cannot be damped. Unless the lifting of the ring finger was performed perfectly, this will result in a noise caused by the brief ringing of the open string.

    2. The index finger frets the lower note before the ring finger ceases to be in contact with the string. That is, a<c<d<b. In this case, the energy of the index finger hammer is wasted. The index hammer cannot sound the lower note as the ring finger is still in contact with the string, damping it. Thus, the lower note will be silent unless the lifting of the ring finger was performed poorly, which would be a very weak an ineffective pull-off.

    3. The string ceases to be in contact with the higher fret under the ring finger, the index finger makes initial contact with the string, the ring finger ceases to be in contact with the string and the string makes contact the lower fret, in that order. That is a<c<b<d. In this case, the string ceases to make contact with the higher fret, and is damped by the ring finger. There is a brief period where the ring and index finger both contact the string, but no note is fretted. Then, finally the lower note is fretted by the index finger and rings due to the energy of the index hammer. That is, we achieve a descending hammer. The if the period of simultaneous finger contact is made as short as possible (a<c=b<d is the limiting case), the index hammer imparts more energy into string vibration.

    Scenario 3 is the only correct descending hammer. If the total time period a to d were made imperceptible, then it would indistinguishable from the ascending hammer, which necessarily also has a gap by previous argument.

    Scenarios 1 and 2 are mistakes, with scenario 2 being the worst possible outcome.

    Scenario 3, the true descending hammer, is very difficult to execute, but it is possible, both in theory and in practice.

    Now, the above should convince you that the descending hammer is possible. But how do you begin to teach yourself to do it? I can only share what worked for me.

    What worked for me was to intentionally begin with scenario 1, and attempt to refine until scenario 3 is achieved. Beginning with scenario 1 is very beneficial, as it prevents you from fretting the lower note before the higher finder ceases to be in contact with the string. That is, this approach prevents scenario 2, which is the worst possible outcome (silence or a bad pull-off).

    As we’re usually (and should be) familiar with pull-offs before we attempt to learn descending hammers, there is a natural tendency to “load” the index finger into fretting the lower note, but this is a recipe for scenario 2.

    The correct descending hammer is valuable as the tone difference between ascending and descending hammers is more consistent than when using pull offs.

    If you perform a descending hammer correctly when unplugged, you will hear the noise of the string vibrating between the nut and the lower finger (index in my previous discussion), similar to the unplugged performance of a hammer from nowhere. This parasitic noise is of little concern on an electric guitar, as it will not be heard when plugged in, however it makes the technique impractical on an acoustic."

    The quote was posted here:
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    JohnCordy said:

    Some of my basic advice is - play everything lighter. You're not actually aiming to generate velocity with the pick, more kind of feather the note to try and keep the hammers and pulls at a similar volume ton the picked note.


    I think this is a really important point. As much as anything it is a sound. Leaving the fretting hand for a moment, Holdsworth picked a lot, Garsed hybrid picks, Allen Hinds who is another stellar legato guy has a very involved picking hand. But a s @JohnCordy mentions, keeping picked and fretted notes even with the right  duration is key. 


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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    GuyBoden said:
    Barney said:


    I done something a few months ago when I could use the picking hand ...dont iff it will be any help but it will show you can do quite a bit with just the fretting hand 

    Very impressive, sounds like all hammer ons for both ascending and descending.

    Yeah it's all hameer on and pull off...the hardest thing for me is getting the it to sound on the first finger when ascending...coming down the scale is fairly easy it's just going up that is awkward that's wh most people start it with a pick attack ...where as going down you can hammer from nowhere easily 
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  • GrangousierGrangousier Frets: 2621
    I had a question about string weight and legato, but I expect it's answered in on of the videos I've not had a chance to watch yet. I did also want to say that I think "The True Descending Hammer" would be a great title for something heavy.
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    I had a question about string weight and legato, but I expect it's answered in on of the videos I've not had a chance to watch yet. I did also want to say that I think "The True Descending Hammer" would be a great title for something heavy.

    It's been quoted that Tom Quayle uses 11s.

    There seems to be other components:

    Use of a compressor.
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • JohnCordyJohnCordy Frets: 650
    @GuyBoden I use 10s and 11s. String gauge is not such an important factor. Neither is a compressor necessary if you have control over your picking hand. Of course you will start initially playing with gain, but once your technique is refined it can quite comfortably work on clean settings too.
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  • BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
    edited April 2020
    JohnCordy said:
    here's one.

    Some of my basic advice is - play everything lighter. You're not actually aiming to generate velocity with the pick, more kind of feather the note to try and keep the hammers and pulls at a similar volume ton the picked note.

    And practice playing in even 4s, this will help you to smooth out lines across string transitions.


    These tips are absolute gems. thanks @JohnCordy !

    Just seen the video demonstration. Mind blowing! Didn't understand the "all hammer on" approach until this!
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