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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    edited August 2016
    You've rather missed my point.

    I've played simple pop rock, played covers,functions, some jazz & fusion played techy metal stuff.
    Some of it has been paid, some of it hasn't.
    I'm now learning drums and on a tear to get to a professional level of playing as efficiently as possible.
    I'm going to do it by studying the instrument and learning from those that have come before me. 

    I've played with all levels of ability and I can work with anyone except people who have a chip on their shoulder about being untrained.
    Well, I can work with them too- and have, plenty of times- there is just a lot of eye rolling amongst the other muso's is all.

    The specific problem I am illustrating is the one you are proving for me.
    So you don't understand a ii V I, big deal- as long as you can play enough to do the gig then I'm fine.
    What irritates is when the untrained musician exhibits reverse snobbery as you above above ^^^.

    When I say less fulfilling I am talking about when you have to negotiate a band where the untrained musician has a chip on their shoulder that they are less knowledgable than other folks in the band.
    They use the 'I'm playing from the heart, man' argument- as though knowing something about the thing you are doing is somehow a disadvantage. It is silly and it is exhibited because the fragile ego of the lazy musician is threatened.
    These are the lazy ignoramuses I'm talking about.
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  • BucketBucket Frets: 7751
    impmann said:
    octatonic said:

    I'm not against anyone expressing themselves however they want, but there are loads of guitarists who think because they aren't 'technical' that they have some special passport to awesomehood, and that their incredibly narrow breadth of ability somehow equals individualism.
    Schooled musicians mostly see them as lazy ignoramuses.


    Your final paragraph is one of the most elitist things I've ever read on a musician's website - I don't think I have any such passport and in fact, I'd suggest that the reverse is true.  I would make the point that individualism is something that cannot be taught, though.

    I don't see it as elitist - I would consider myself a schooled musician (just about) and I've met plenty of people who don't really know much about theory but don't make a big deal of it, and I don't mind that. Often they wish they were better at it, sometimes it's not a concern to them.

    What pisses me off, though, is people who say things like "I don't want to learn theory, I think it's restricting" or "I just want to play what I'm feeling, maaaaan". There are people who look down their noses at theory, as if it were something you should ever be dismissive of. I find my knowledge of theory (what there is of it) liberating and I know it has made me a better player and musician. I am more easily able to communicate what I mean to other musicians, and therefore to achieve more, with better results, in a shorter space of time. It's not elitism - not everyone cares about it, and that's fine. But if you don't care about it, don't actively dismiss it because guess what - it makes you sound like a lazy ignoramus.
    - "I'm going to write a very stiff letter. A VERY stiff letter. On cardboard."
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 28280

    I'm pretty sure that Metheny can hear a note or a phrase in his head and then instantly play it on guitar without doing much thinking about it. 
    I'm pretty up and down on Pat Metheny's music. Probably because it's mostly played in lifts.
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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12641
    octatonic said:
    You've rather missed my point.

    I've played simple pop rock, played covers,functions, some jazz & fusion played techy metal stuff.
    Some of it has been paid, some of it hasn't.
    I'm now learning drums and on a tear to get to a professional level of playing as efficiently as possible.
    I'm going to do it by studying the instrument and learning from those that have come before me. 

    I've played with all levels of ability and I can work with anyone except people who have a chip on their shoulder about being untrained.
    Well, I can work with them too- and have, plenty of times- there is just a lot of eye rolling amongst the other muso's is all.

    The specific problem I am illustrating is the one you are proving for me.
    So you don't understand a ii V I, big deal- as long as you can play enough to do the gig then I'm fine.
    What irritates is when the untrained musician exhibits reverse snobbery as you above above ^^^.

    When I say less fulfilling I am talking about when you have to negotiate a band where the untrained musician has a chip on their shoulder that they are less knowledgable than other folks in the band.
    They use the 'I'm playing from the heart, man' argument- as though knowing something about the thing you are doing is somehow a disadvantage. It is silly and it is exhibited because the fragile ego of the lazy musician is threatened.
    These are the lazy ignoramuses I'm talking about.

    A chip on their shoulder? Eye rolling? Fragile ego of the untrained musician? Who is the snob, here?

    I'm snobbish in any direction. I detest snobbery (especially musical snobbery and competetive types within bands) - that has been my exact point from moment one in this discussion. There should be *NO* snobbery in music. That is the point.

    I detest music fascists who believe that the *only way* to play music is to be a theorist... and what I'm saying is, its not the only way. It may be the only way *you personally* can relate to another muso - that's different and that's absolutely fine, and I wish you all the happiness in the world with that. What I am saying is you can be a great musician and not be able to read music/interpret theory.

    If you know anything about Psychology there are different character traits in people - some are theorists who need to understand the theory behind something to be able to make something work. But not all are.  Perhaps what we are proving here, categorically, is that theorists should avoid non-theorists in bands... as they won't see each other's point of view.

    Live and let live. No right. No wrong. Just music. End of... :-)

    I think I'll leave it here, as its going around in circles.





    Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever.

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  • bingefellerbingefeller Frets: 5723
    axisus said:

    I'm pretty sure that Metheny can hear a note or a phrase in his head and then instantly play it on guitar without doing much thinking about it. 
    I'm pretty up and down on Pat Metheny's music. Probably because it's mostly played in lifts.
    You're right, a lot of it is smooth jazz, and Pat hates Kenny G yet they play similar music. 


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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    impmann said:
    octatonic said:
    You've rather missed my point.

    I've played simple pop rock, played covers,functions, some jazz & fusion played techy metal stuff.
    Some of it has been paid, some of it hasn't.
    I'm now learning drums and on a tear to get to a professional level of playing as efficiently as possible.
    I'm going to do it by studying the instrument and learning from those that have come before me. 

    I've played with all levels of ability and I can work with anyone except people who have a chip on their shoulder about being untrained.
    Well, I can work with them too- and have, plenty of times- there is just a lot of eye rolling amongst the other muso's is all.

    The specific problem I am illustrating is the one you are proving for me.
    So you don't understand a ii V I, big deal- as long as you can play enough to do the gig then I'm fine.
    What irritates is when the untrained musician exhibits reverse snobbery as you above above ^^^.

    When I say less fulfilling I am talking about when you have to negotiate a band where the untrained musician has a chip on their shoulder that they are less knowledgable than other folks in the band.
    They use the 'I'm playing from the heart, man' argument- as though knowing something about the thing you are doing is somehow a disadvantage. It is silly and it is exhibited because the fragile ego of the lazy musician is threatened.
    These are the lazy ignoramuses I'm talking about.

    A chip on their shoulder? Eye rolling? Fragile ego of the untrained musician? Who is the snob, here?

    I'm snobbish in any direction. I detest snobbery (especially musical snobbery and competetive types within bands) - that has been my exact point from moment one in this discussion. There should be *NO* snobbery in music. That is the point.

    I detest music fascists who believe that the *only way* to play music is to be a theorist... and what I'm saying is, its not the only way. It may be the only way *you personally* can relate to another muso - that's different and that's absolutely fine, and I wish you all the happiness in the world with that. What I am saying is you can be a great musician and not be able to read music/interpret theory.

    If you know anything about Psychology there are different character traits in people - some are theorists who need to understand the theory behind something to be able to make something work. But not all are.  Perhaps what we are proving here, categorically, is that theorists should avoid non-theorists in bands... as they won't see each other's point of view.

    Live and let live. No right. No wrong. Just music. End of... :-)

    I think I'll leave it here, as its going around in circles.





    Again, you've ignored my point and latched onto a couple of words that you've chosen to get self-righteous about.
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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12641
    What is your point?
    Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever.

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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    Bucket said:
    impmann said:
    octatonic said:

    I'm not against anyone expressing themselves however they want, but there are loads of guitarists who think because they aren't 'technical' that they have some special passport to awesomehood, and that their incredibly narrow breadth of ability somehow equals individualism.
    Schooled musicians mostly see them as lazy ignoramuses.


    Your final paragraph is one of the most elitist things I've ever read on a musician's website - I don't think I have any such passport and in fact, I'd suggest that the reverse is true.  I would make the point that individualism is something that cannot be taught, though.

    I don't see it as elitist - I would consider myself a schooled musician (just about) and I've met plenty of people who don't really know much about theory but don't make a big deal of it, and I don't mind that. Often they wish they were better at it, sometimes it's not a concern to them.

    What pisses me off, though, is people who say things like "I don't want to learn theory, I think it's restricting" or "I just want to play what I'm feeling, maaaaan". There are people who look down their noses at theory, as if it were something you should ever be dismissive of. I find my knowledge of theory (what there is of it) liberating and I know it has made me a better player and musician. I am more easily able to communicate what I mean to other musicians, and therefore to achieve more, with better results, in a shorter space of time. It's not elitism - not everyone cares about it, and that's fine. But if you don't care about it, don't actively dismiss it because guess what - it makes you sound like a lazy ignoramus.
    Exactly this.
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  • BucketBucket Frets: 7751
    edited August 2016
    impmann said:

    There should be *NO* snobbery in music. That is the point.

    I detest music fascists who believe that the *only way* to play music is to be a theorist... 
    Can't help but feel you're contradicting yourself rather.
    - "I'm going to write a very stiff letter. A VERY stiff letter. On cardboard."
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  • octatonic said:
    I just go apeshit in E minor.
    That must sound interesting when you play Smells Like Teen Spirit.
    Jazz. 
    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • BucketBucket Frets: 7751
    edited August 2016
    impmann said:
    A chip on their shoulder? Eye rolling? Fragile ego of the untrained musician? Who is the snob, here?
    There's being a snob, and then there's being rightfully dismissive of someone who is being ignorant for the sake of it.
    - "I'm going to write a very stiff letter. A VERY stiff letter. On cardboard."
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  • richardhomerrichardhomer Frets: 24793
    axisus said:

    I'm pretty sure that Metheny can hear a note or a phrase in his head and then instantly play it on guitar without doing much thinking about it. 
    I'm pretty up and down on Pat Metheny's music. Probably because it's mostly played in lifts.
    That's wrong on so many levels....
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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12641
    Bucket said:
    impmann said:

    There should be *NO* snobbery in music. That is the point.

    I detest music fascists who believe that the *only way* to play music is to be a theorist... 
    Can't help but feel you're contradicting yourself rather.
    Your original comment was "Inverse Snobbery is fucking great though isn't it"

    No contradiction. Its not snobbery to detest fascism - and some musos can be really fascistic about it (ie their way is the only way).

    octatonic said:
    Bucket said:
    impmann said:
    octatonic said:

    I'm not against anyone expressing themselves however they want, but there are loads of guitarists who think because they aren't 'technical' that they have some special passport to awesomehood, and that their incredibly narrow breadth of ability somehow equals individualism.
    Schooled musicians mostly see them as lazy ignoramuses.


    Your final paragraph is one of the most elitist things I've ever read on a musician's website - I don't think I have any such passport and in fact, I'd suggest that the reverse is true.  I would make the point that individualism is something that cannot be taught, though.

    I don't see it as elitist - I would consider myself a schooled musician (just about) and I've met plenty of people who don't really know much about theory but don't make a big deal of it, and I don't mind that. Often they wish they were better at it, sometimes it's not a concern to them.

    What pisses me off, though, is people who say things like "I don't want to learn theory, I think it's restricting" or "I just want to play what I'm feeling, maaaaan". There are people who look down their noses at theory, as if it were something you should ever be dismissive of. I find my knowledge of theory (what there is of it) liberating and I know it has made me a better player and musician. I am more easily able to communicate what I mean to other musicians, and therefore to achieve more, with better results, in a shorter space of time. It's not elitism - not everyone cares about it, and that's fine. But if you don't care about it, don't actively dismiss it because guess what - it makes you sound like a lazy ignoramus.
    Exactly this.

    OK - so you feel that learning theory has helped you as a musician. Fantastic - good for you. I don't believe that the reverse is true for me - I don't believe it would have been restricting, I just haven't ever bothered. I don't care about not knowing the correct terminology for a particular grouping of notes or chords, but I don't think I'm a lazy ignoramus. It has nothing to do with being a reverse snob, its just the way that I've chosen. I don't make a song or dance about it normally - and wish I'd never mentioned it - I just play by ear.

    You described me as self-righteous... no, I'd disagree. What works for you may not work for someone else. To criticise another's choice is unkind, and can only based on your own path and life choices - you aren't seeing the other person's opinion or chosing to ignore or, worse still, belittle it. Therefore, isn't that a little self-righteous? I'm sure if the two of us ever sat down over a pint, we'd get on great and we'd find a common ground - but the medium of the printed word probably shows both of us in a bad light.

    Like I say, no right, no wrong. Just music.

    Peace, love and sausage rolls.
    :-)






    Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever.

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  • BucketBucket Frets: 7751
    edited August 2016
    impmann said:
    Your original comment was "Inverse Snobbery is fucking great though isn't it"

    No contradiction. Its not snobbery to detest fascism - and some musos can be really fascistic about it (ie their way is the only way).
    I can't believe you're equating this with fascism. At no point has Oct said that his way is the only way.

    And anyway, it IS inverse snobbery - you're looking down your nose at a differing approach to playing music, simply because it requires an amount of extra work and knowledge that you consider unnecessary.
    - "I'm going to write a very stiff letter. A VERY stiff letter. On cardboard."
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  • You don't have time to think about what note you're playing if at speed, though. I know the notes on the fretboard and the scale all over with reference to the root on each string but that's where it ends - after that, it's patterns - I memorise it as one massive scale over the fretboard. I'll use theory so I know what key we're in, if there's some sort of modal modulation, that sort of thing. If you know 1 4 5 etc relative to the root of course you can transpose but I still couldn't do it instantly. I agree though - too much focus on learning by rote. I myself place too much emphasis on technique over the music - guilty as charged!
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  • thomasross20thomasross20 Frets: 4423
    edited August 2016
    At one point I knew the melodic and harmonic minor modes (every one!) across the whole fretboard starting from any place on the fretboard as well but now it's major scale only as I didn't use those enough. :(

    Sound is the most important thing. I remember Slash saying in an early interview that running up and down scales was like learning Ba Ba Black Sheep - instead he used the scales to play the sound in his head and to a large extent I agree with this.
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  • BucketBucket Frets: 7751
    You don't have time to think about what note you're playing if at speed, though.
    Learn it slowly at first so you know exactly where you're going and when, then speed it up and bob's yer uncle, surely?
    - "I'm going to write a very stiff letter. A VERY stiff letter. On cardboard."
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  • At one point I knew the melodic and harmonic minor modes (every one!) across the whole fretboard starting from any place on the fretboard as well but now it's major scale only as I didn't use those enough. :(

    Sound is the most important thing. I remember Slash saying in an early interview that running up and down scales was like learning Ba Ba Black Sheep - instead he used the scales to play the sound in his head and to a large extent I agree with this.
    But he uses the harmonic minor scale for the end solo of Sweet Child Of Mine :)
    It's not a competition.
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  • thomasross20thomasross20 Frets: 4423
    edited August 2016
    Yeah I just remember that solo by rote - there's no way in hell for every solo I play I'm remembering every single note as I play it :lol:

    --> I'm learning "Rising Force" album right now and it's like the speed of light. No way in hell is anybody remembering every note as they play them, it's too much for the brain to process. Instead they know the root scale/key and work off shapes. You can break stuff down into notes for analysis or if playing slower stuff.


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  • FYI I'd like to do the jazz approach more but know I'll never get round to it. I prefer if the overall key stays the same for multiple bars so I can use one scale and some pitch axis as opposed to more chordal/arp playing because the chords change so much (not necessarily in the same key). That's mind-blowing for me but also a totally different style.
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