Should I learn the Circle of Fifths and Major Scale Notes?

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  • proggyproggy Frets: 5827
    notanon said:
    Shed loads of info as @Viz says. Other uses as well - some images have the relative minor as an inner circle and lots of other information. For example look at the standard wiki page for circle of fifths - it shows the musical staves and the order in which the sharps or flats would be drawn, . . .  So useful I recreated the Wiki diagram (the wiki image is not mathematically precise) and made a clock for myself:

    http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah105/UKGuitarPlayer/Misc/CofFifthsClock_zpstp4nbhhn.jpg

    That was my first version. I found so useful I gave some clocks to friends and family that are into music. That was the crappiest of the ones I made. I still have the Photoshop file kept safe :-)

    @Manne awesome C of Fifths!!!
    I like that clock
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  • ModellistaModellista Frets: 2039
    Now, I'm going to try and tread a fine line here between respecting the theoretical knowledge of those who have posted here, whilst saying the Circle of Fifths is pretty much redundant on the guitar.

    Why?  Because, unlike a piano, as a player you don't need to concern yourself unduly with whether a particular key has sharps and flats.  Want to transpose a C major scale to a B?  If you were going to write that down in notation, or play it on a piano, you would need to use the Circle of Fifths to know that B has five sharps.  On a guitar?  Just shift the whole thing down by one fret and throw the Co5ths in the bin.  If you know the fingering for the major scale (without using any open strings) then you can move it anywhere you like, without giving one jot for what the note names actually are.  Apart from the root note, of course.  It's the *relationship* between the notes you are playing rather than the actual note names themselves that are important.  In fact, because you can tune a guitar up and down with ease, the actual note names can be more of a hindrance than a help.  I tune down to Eb, but I still call a C chord a C chord, and unless I'm playing with a piano or other fixed-tuning instrument, it works fine.  And if I *am* playing with a fixed-tuning instrument, I just tell them I'm playing a B and let them worry about it! :)

    @Viz gives an excellent summary of the theory, but I've already argued that you don't actually need to worry about "how many sharps are in this key signature" to play the guitar to a high level.  As for finding 5ths?  Doesn't this come naturally, from the most basic of chords, the power chord?  The E, A, and D shape have a 5th built right into them as the next note up from the root - so doesn't every guitarist instinctively know where to find (if not the actual name of) the 5th of any key?

    For me personally, the secrets of music theory can be unlocked by considering chord construction.  Learn the basics - root, third, fifth, and understand the what makes major and what makes minor chords (changing the third, basically).  Then consider sus2, sus4, major and minor 7th, add9, add11, and learn how they sound.  Then diminished, and augmented, and... well, it never stops.  

    If you know a chord you know half the scale, and then experimenting with filling in the blanks to see what sounds good is my personal recipe for interesting playing, rather than sweating over whether you should be playing an F# or G in that A major scale.  Knowing what sound you're going for, rather than what theory says you should do, is they key to interesting playing IMHO.  On the guitar, at any rate.  I'm not sure Mozart would thank you for changing his sheet music, but since most mainstream guitar playing is largely improvisatory, this sort of approach works, in my experience.

    Again, to make it clear, I'm not criticising anything that has gone before, it's just that it's my opinion that, specifically for mainstream guitar playing, the Circle of Fifths is not worth spending time worrying about.
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  • beed84beed84 Frets: 2403
    @notanon that clock is awesome. Would be handy have one of those myself!
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  • notanonnotanon Frets: 604
    @beed84 I have the file to print complete with cut out markers at 300 dpi.the clock is dirt cheap plastic. Pop the back off insert the print out. Let me know if you want the file.

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  • beed84beed84 Frets: 2403
    notanon said:
    @beed84 I have the file to print complete with cut out markers at 300 dpi.the clock is dirt cheap plastic. Pop the back off insert the print out. Let me know if you want the file.

    PM'd
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  • RockerRocker Frets: 4947
    My honest answer to the OPs question is no. But knowing some theory never did anyone any harm. From my perspective, theory can stifle your natural curiosity about what works or doesn't work musically. Playing for fun as I do, I believe that ear training and learning how to listen to music is very important. I mean listening to music from the view of trying to replicate it as closely as possible. @Octatonic had a thread about learning a set list in 30 days, this contains a lot of very useful help and information on music and how to play it. Worth reading IMHO.
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

    Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited January 2017
    Now, I'm going to try and tread a fine line here between respecting the theoretical knowledge of those who have posted here, whilst saying the Circle of Fifths is pretty much redundant on the guitar.

    Why?  Because, unlike a piano, as a player you don't need to concern yourself unduly with whether a particular key has sharps and flats.  Want to transpose a C major scale to a B?  If you were going to write that down in notation, or play it on a piano, you would need to use the Circle of Fifths to know that B has five sharps.  On a guitar?  Just shift the whole thing down by one fret and throw the Co5ths in the bin.  If you know the fingering for the major scale (without using any open strings) then you can move it anywhere you like, without giving one jot for what the note names actually are.  Apart from the root note, of course.  It's the *relationship* between the notes you are playing rather than the actual note names themselves that are important.  In fact, because you can tune a guitar up and down with ease, the actual note names can be more of a hindrance than a help.  I tune down to Eb, but I still call a C chord a C chord, and unless I'm playing with a piano or other fixed-tuning instrument, it works fine.  And if I *am* playing with a fixed-tuning instrument, I just tell them I'm playing a B and let them worry about it!

    @Viz gives an excellent summary of the theory, but I've already argued that you don't actually need to worry about "how many sharps are in this key signature" to play the guitar to a high level.  As for finding 5ths?  Doesn't this come naturally, from the most basic of chords, the power chord?  The E, A, and D shape have a 5th built right into them as the next note up from the root - so doesn't every guitarist instinctively know where to find (if not the actual name of) the 5th of any key?

    For me personally, the secrets of music theory can be unlocked by considering chord construction.  Learn the basics - root, third, fifth, and understand the what makes major and what makes minor chords (changing the third, basically).  Then consider sus2, sus4, major and minor 7th, add9, add11, and learn how they sound.  Then diminished, and augmented, and... well, it never stops.  

    If you know a chord you know half the scale, and then experimenting with filling in the blanks to see what sounds good is my personal recipe for interesting playing, rather than sweating over whether you should be playing an F# or G in that A major scale.  Knowing what sound you're going for, rather than what theory says you should do, is they key to interesting playing IMHO.  On the guitar, at any rate.  I'm not sure Mozart would thank you for changing his sheet music, but since most mainstream guitar playing is largely improvisatory, this sort of approach works, in my experience.

    Again, to make it clear, I'm not criticising anything that has gone before, it's just that it's my opinion that, specifically for mainstream guitar playing, the Circle of Fifths is not worth spending time worrying about.
    I think you're spot on in that as a guitarist you don't NEED to know that E major has 4 sharps (though it helps if you can shout to your keyboardist "No! Play a G#!" for example) and I definitely agree that you can treat the guitar as a key-agnostic instrument from the first fret upwards; but what I think is that you can't unlearn it once you know it, it is very simple to learn, and it is incredibly useful - just in terms of knowing how I, IV and V chords actually work; why the V chord has a flat 7; what happens when you make the ii chord into a major II chord; etc - all these things and many others are encapsulated in the Co5 diagram. I just think Co5 is one of very few fundamental musical building blocks that manages to convey an awful lot of info.

    I would agree though that piano players need it even more, to know sharps and flats to play the right black notes, but I'd also say that being familiar with the piano layout does also help guitarists by the way, as it's the perfect model of our western music system. 

    Just thinking as I write, I will concede there's a difference between understanding it and learning it off by heart; understanding it is probably a very useful first step; learning it is maybe not so much, initially at least.

    :)
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • @viz what does happen when you make the ii chord into a Major?
    Would that indicate that the key has changed? i.e the i and ii are now iv and v?
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    @viz what does happen when you make the ii chord into a Major?
    Would that indicate that the key has changed? i.e the i and ii are now iv and v?
    That is called a parallel modulation- yes it means a key change.
    What is typical is a progression like this:

    Dm7 / G7 / |  Cmaj7 / / / | Cmin7 / F7 / | Bbmaj7 / / / |

    This is a ii V I in C then a parallel modulation where the Cmaj7 becomes the ii of a II V I in Bb.

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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited January 2017
    ^ well I actually hadn't meant that - I meant like a secondary dominant, like instead of ii V I, it's II V I. The II has a major 3rd, which is a semitone below the V chord's root note. So if you were playing in C, and you heard the notes F#, G, C - that F# would be part of the secondary dominant - it's the major 3rd of a D major chord. (You'd normally expect to hear F,G,C, like a normal ii V I). But if you hear an F#, the chords you've got are D - G - C, a II V I progression, back-cycling round the Co5. Pretty sure I haven't explained myself very well there but. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Can you please delete this post? Everytime I see it I think it's about cradle of filth...
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  • I'm with the modellista camp but I LOVE that clock!
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  • notanonnotanon Frets: 604
    For all interested then I have placed the print for the circle of fifths clock at:

    http://www.clienthosting.co.uk/cof5thsToPrint.pdf

    I have rebuilt the one at wikipedia so that it is accurate and able to place onto the clock face.  The clock I bought was:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000G73YJ6

    Available in several colours there. That clock is easy to disassemble and I have put the marker for the lug to cut out on the pdf. My wife is into crafts so we had the spray glue so it wasn't messy when sticking. I printed on something like 120gsm to 200gsm paper matt but you may prefer glossy. I used photoshop paths and fonts to re-create the image, I know photoshop quite well so I generated the minutes at every 6 degrees and the 5 minute markers at every 30 degrees I may have messed up on resolution or mode but some of the 5 minute blocks seem a little fuzzy, I should at some point redo that but can't see at a distance. You should print the pdf at best quality and at 100% and that should be perfect size for the clock above. Most parts are vectors so in theory I can scale as wiki uses SVG. But I have very little time these days.

    Let me know if you need any further help.

    Released by me under creative commons inherited from Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Just_plain_Bill
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  • notanonnotanon Frets: 604
    I would appreciate any uploaded pictures or information of any clocks created it took me a few hours of creating the photoshop file. The one on wiki cannot be placed onto a clock, all out of place and not mathematically accurate but my favourite version at that time.
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    I appreciate all advice, but can anyone give specific examples of how the knowledge of it can help? Thanks in advance
    it can help with composition when you have two sections of music in different keys and need to find a way to seamlessly got from one to the other.. 
    using the cycle of 5ths or 4ths [or bits of both] is one way to build such a bridge by passing through many keys in succession until you hit the target key..
    in the sort of music I get involved with [particularly my orchestral / movie trailer / proggy stuff] this can be 'a way' to help find or contribute to a solution…

    jazzers love this sit too cos they get involved with a lot of II-V-I and VI-II-V-I progressions [which is cycle of 5ths stuff]

    will this make you a better player? nope ! !
    playing, repertoire, practice, and experimenting with the stuff you've learned to play does that…
    but it will help you think and may throw your creativity down a few paths that your intuition may not..

    play every note as if it were your first
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    edited January 2017

    octatonic said:
    @viz what does happen when you make the ii chord into a Major?
    Would that indicate that the key has changed? i.e the i and ii are now iv and v?
    That is called a parallel modulation- yes it means a key change.
    What is typical is a progression like this:

    Dm7 / G7 / |  Cmaj7 / / / | Cmin7 / F7 / | Bbmaj7 / / / |

    This is a ii V I in C then a parallel modulation where the Cmaj7 becomes the ii of a II V I in Bb.

    hmmm… is that right???
    EDITED: in the case above, the C chord is a <sort of> 'pivot chord' because it <sort of> belongs to both keys..
    a true pivot chord is one that belongs completely to 2 different keys.. like Em being III in C and VI in G.

    I thought parallel modulation would be something like being in C maj, then switching to Cm
    so there's a key change over the same tonic…
    you've gone and got me doubting myself now.. I reckon I need to look this up when I get a mo..

    play every note as if it were your first
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261

    Clarky said:

    octatonic said:
    @viz what does happen when you make the ii chord into a Major?
    Would that indicate that the key has changed? i.e the i and ii are now iv and v?
    That is called a parallel modulation- yes it means a key change.
    What is typical is a progression like this:

    Dm7 / G7 / |  Cmaj7 / / / | Cmin7 / F7 / | Bbmaj7 / / / |

    This is a ii V I in C then a parallel modulation where the Cmaj7 becomes the ii of a II V I in Bb.

    hmmm… is that right???
    in the case above, the C chord is a 'pivot chord' because it belong to both keys..

    I thought parallel modulation would be something like being in C maj, then switching to Cm
    so there's a key change over the same tonic…
    you've gone and got me doubting myself now.. I reckon I need to look this up when I get a mo..

    looked it up in wiki

    A parallel key modulation is a change of mode, but maintains the same tonal center. For example, one section of a composition may be in the key of E major and then modulate to E minor.
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • I found the circle of fifths useful for dental work to take my mind off the drilling. Problem is I know it too well now. Alternatively eat less sugar and you won't need it.
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  • uncledickuncledick Frets: 403
    Now, I'm going to try and tread a fine line here between respecting the theoretical knowledge of those who have posted here, whilst saying the Circle of Fifths is pretty much redundant on the guitar.

    Why?  Because, unlike a piano, as a player you don't need to concern yourself unduly with whether a particular key has sharps and flats.  Want to transpose a C major scale to a B?  If you were going to write that down in notation, or play it on a piano, you would need to use the Circle of Fifths to know that B has five sharps.  On a guitar?  Just shift the whole thing down by one fret and throw the Co5ths in the bin.  If you know the fingering for the major scale (without using any open strings) then you can move it anywhere you like, without giving one jot for what the note names actually are.  Apart from the root note, of course.  It's the *relationship* between the notes you are playing rather than the actual note names themselves that are important.  In fact, because you can tune a guitar up and down with ease, the actual note names can be more of a hindrance than a help.  I tune down to Eb, but I still call a C chord a C chord, and unless I'm playing with a piano or other fixed-tuning instrument, it works fine.  And if I *am* playing with a fixed-tuning instrument, I just tell them I'm playing a B and let them worry about it! :)

    @Viz gives an excellent summary of the theory, but I've already argued that you don't actually need to worry about "how many sharps are in this key signature" to play the guitar to a high level.  As for finding 5ths?  Doesn't this come naturally, from the most basic of chords, the power chord?  The E, A, and D shape have a 5th built right into them as the next note up from the root - so doesn't every guitarist instinctively know where to find (if not the actual name of) the 5th of any key?

    For me personally, the secrets of music theory can be unlocked by considering chord construction.  Learn the basics - root, third, fifth, and understand the what makes major and what makes minor chords (changing the third, basically).  Then consider sus2, sus4, major and minor 7th, add9, add11, and learn how they sound.  Then diminished, and augmented, and... well, it never stops.  

    If you know a chord you know half the scale, and then experimenting with filling in the blanks to see what sounds good is my personal recipe for interesting playing, rather than sweating over whether you should be playing an F# or G in that A major scale.  Knowing what sound you're going for, rather than what theory says you should do, is they key to interesting playing IMHO.  On the guitar, at any rate.  I'm not sure Mozart would thank you for changing his sheet music, but since most mainstream guitar playing is largely improvisatory, this sort of approach works, in my experience.

    Again, to make it clear, I'm not criticising anything that has gone before, it's just that it's my opinion that, specifically for mainstream guitar playing, the Circle of Fifths is not worth spending time worrying about.
    Very nicely put. 

    As someone who's never had a music lesson, let alone a guitar lesson, I really struggle with any kind of theory.  I've looked at various Youtube vids about minor pentatonics etc. and just find myself feeling 'hemmed in'.  Whilst I'm pretty hopeless at just turning up and jamming along, I can, given a little time, work out quite a reasonable solo which will fit in with the flavour of the piece.

    Our keyboard player - who has a degree in music - called me 'a brilliant musician'.  I'm not, but when I asked her to explain, she said it's because of the way I can interpret a song and make it work for our line-up - and then transpose the key as required using the stuff that @modellista talks about.

    The fact is that music means a whole lot of different things to different folks.  If you're enjoying it, you're doing it right.
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  • uncledick said:8
    Now, I'm going to try and tread a fine line here between respecting the theoretical knowledge of those who have posted here, whilst saying the Circle of Fifths is pretty much redundant on the guitar.

    Why?  Because, unlike a piano, as a player you don't need to concern yourself unduly with whether a particular key has sharps and flats.  Want to transpose a C major scale to a B?  If you were going to write that down in notation, or play it on a piano, you would need to use the Circle of Fifths to know that B has five sharps.  On a guitar?  Just shift the whole thing down by one fret and throw the Co5ths in the bin.  If you know the fingering for the major scale (without using any open strings) then you can move it anywhere you like, without giving one jot for what the note names actually are.  Apart from the root note, of course.  It's the *relationship* between the notes you are playing rather than the actual note names themselves that are important.  In fact, because you can tune a guitar up and down with ease, the actual note names can be more of a hindrance than a help.  I tune down to Eb, but I still call a C chord a C chord, and unless I'm playing with a piano or other fixed-tuning instrument, it works fine.  And if I *am* playing with a fixed-tuning instrument, I just tell them I'm playing a B and let them worry about it! :)

    @Viz gives an excellent summary of the theory, but I've already argued that you don't actually need to worry about "how many sharps are in this key signature" to play the guitar to a high level.  As for finding 5ths?  Doesn't this come naturally, from the most basic of chords, the power chord?  The E, A, and D shape have a 5th built right into them as the next note up from the root - so doesn't every guitarist instinctively know where to find (if not the actual name of) the 5th of any key?

    For me personally, the secrets of music theory can be unlocked by considering chord construction.  Learn the basics - root, third, fifth, and understand the what makes major and what makes minor chords (changing the third, basically).  Then consider sus2, sus4, major and minor 7th, add9, add11, and learn how they sound.  Then diminished, and augmented, and... well, it never stops.  

    If you know a chord you know half the scale, and then experimenting with filling in the blanks to see what sounds good is my personal recipe for interesting playing, rather than sweating over whether you should be playing an F# or G in that A major scale.  Knowing what sound you're going for, rather than what theory says you should do, is they key to interesting playing IMHO.  On the guitar, at any rate.  I'm not sure Mozart would thank you for changing his sheet music, but since most mainstream guitar playing is largely improvisatory, this sort of approach works, in my experience.

    Again, to make it clear, I'm not criticising anything that has gone before, it's just that it's my opinion that, specifically for mainstream guitar playing, the Circle of Fifths is not worth spending time worrying about.
    Very nicely put. 

    As someone who's never had a music lesson, let alone a guitar lesson, I really struggle with any kind of theory.  I've looked at various Youtube vids about minor pentatonics etc. and just find myself feeling 'hemmed in'.  Whilst I'm pretty hopeless at just turning up and jamming along, I can, given a little time, work out quite a reasonable solo which will fit in with the flavour of the piece.

    Our keyboard player - who has a degree in music - called me 'a brilliant musician'.  I'm not, but when I asked her to explain, she said it's because of the way I can interpret a song and make it work for our line-up - and then transpose the key as required using the stuff that @modellista talks about.

    The fact is that music means a whole lot of different things to different folks.  If you're enjoying it, you're doing it right.
    What would you say was the most important thing in your development? Learning songs by ear? Building the innate connection between ear and fretboard?
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